[00:00:00] Abby Ferber: We've often taught it as a us versus them kind of problem, right? You know, white people versus all people of color. And then people get into these, you know, hardened categories, like, you know, "Well, I didn't do this to you, and so you can't blame me," or, "Why did you do this?" And that's not what it's about.

It's about looking at how we're all a part of this same society and have been put into these categories whether we like it or not. We didn't create them, but now that we're in them, what does that mean? How can we be accountable to one another? What do we do with it? What do we wanna change?

[00:00:47] Sam Fuqua: That's Abby Ferber, and this is Well, That Went Sideways, a podcast that serves as a resource to help people have healthy, respectful communication.

We present a diversity of ideas, tools, and techniques to help you transform conflict in relationships of all kinds. In this episode, we talk with Abby Ferber about her work teaching students about privilege. She's a professor in sociology and women's and ethnic studies at the University of Colorado.

She's also director of the Matrix Center for the Advancement of Social Equity and Inclusion, which is home to the KNAPSACK Institute, a public effort to transform teaching and learning. I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of the program with Alexis Miles. Hi, Alexis.

[00:01:36] Alexis Miles: Hi, Sam.

[00:01:37] Sam Fuqua: And we're pleased to be joined for this episode of Well, That Went Sideways by Abby Ferber.

Hello. Thank you for spending time with us. Thank you, Sam and Alexis. Happy to be here.

[00:01:48] Alexis Miles: Abby, I'd like to just dive right in. You've spent decades studying privilege, oppression, extremist movements, and those kinds of things. What sparked your interest in these matters?

[00:02:03] Abby Ferber: That's a great question. You know, I think the, those are issues that I've been pulled to my whole life, you know, since a very young age, and always did volunteer work while I was growing up and chose classes I could take that focused on issues of inequity.

Uh, in high school I started an organization called Students for Nuclear Awareness, and then I volunteered at a shelter for unhoused people, and that's, you know, just always what's drawn me in, always attracted to, you know, the underdog in books that I read, and always questioned things. Always, always. And, uh, my mom actually used to complain that I'd ask why too many times, and often her response was, "Because I'm your mother and I said so."

[00:02:53] Alexis Miles: When people first encounter the idea of privilege, what are some of the most common misunderstandings that they have?

[00:03:02] Abby Ferber: That's a great question, and one that I encounter all the time in teaching, that's for sure. And I think people often respond defensively if they are a white person, if we're talking about white privilege, for example.

Uh, and I think people often feel they're under attack in some way and, and take it very personally. So I, I think it takes a lot of work to kind of undo all of those immediate reactions that get triggered, and to work through all of the myths and assumptions to really help people understand what it really is about, what privilege really means, and what their role is in the systems of privilege.

[00:03:47] Alexis Miles: So it seems like you're able to move it from an accusation to an exploration.

[00:03:56] Abby Ferber: Yes, exactly, and I think that's what we have to do. And I think, for example, in teaching, in workshops, you know, for facilitators, we can preempt a lot of that defensiveness and a lot of the questions we know that we always get when we introduce the subject by planning how we're going to introduce it, by preparing students or colleagues, by building up a sort of knowledge base or, uh, you know, emotional, social-emotional skills to be able to talk about it in a way where people don't automatically just react, but stop and think.

[00:04:34] Alexis Miles: And that sounds like any conflict then. That in any conflict, those are some of the things that we try to do at the beginning- Yeah ... to diffuse defensiveness, um, so that people feel safe and- Yeah ... willing to be open and honest.

[00:04:48] Abby Ferber: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.

[00:04:51] Alexis Miles: And can you say some of the, the strategies you use to do that?

[00:04:57] Abby Ferber: Sure. Uh, it's easiest for me to talk about teaching since that's where, you know, I'm dealing with these issues every day. So in teaching, I usually spend the first couple weeks having students do a lot of exploration of themselves and their assumptions and values and their own life experiences. And we spend some time talking and doing some activities around the topic of triggers.

And not the way triggers has been talked about in the media as, you know, trigger warnings, uh, you know, and letting people know something might be upsetting, but in much more depth. Really, I use the work of Kathy Obear, who has written a lot on triggers and the triggering process. And so we explore, each of us, you know, I include myself in there with my students, our own triggers.

What kinds of things trigger us when they come up, come up in a class on race and ethnicity, or gender and sexuality, or any dynamics of privilege and inequality? And then we ask ourselves a series of questions and go back and look at why those things trigger us, where it comes from, because most of the time it has very deep roots, you know, what it reminds us of.

And then we examine how we react to triggers, right? And not to say there's one reaction that's right or wrong, but we need to become familiar with the ways in which we do react when we're triggered, because everyone's triggered by something, right? And then think about, "Is this the way I want to react in the future when I'm triggered?

Has it been successful for me? Has it led to open conversations or shut them down?" And then really explore alternative ways that we can respond that might be much more productive in maintaining relationships, in terms of being consistent with the values that we state we hold onto, and in terms of being able to have civil, respectful dialogue.

So that, that's one of the ways that I f- I find to be very helpful.

[00:07:00] Alexis Miles: So it sounds to me that you're making what might be an invisible process visible, so that instead of us just rela- reacting to something that's unconscious, you help bring it into awareness so that we have more choices around it. Is, is that- Yeah

accurate?

[00:07:16] Abby Ferber: Yeah, exactly. That's a great way to describe it. And, you know, students always say that it's one of the most meaningful activities we do in the class because it's something, you know, that helps you throughout the rest of your life. Because as I said, you know, we often have family members that trigger us for some reason.

And so it helps us to examine where our reactions come from, and so we can start to think about that in every aspect of our life. But it particularly lays a strong foundation for a class where you're going to be able to build some level of trust among one another, treat each other with respect, and really preempt any possibilities for those kinds of extremely negative emotional responses.

[00:08:02] Alexis Miles: So I And people like me who are not in a classroom setting, like when we're listening to something like the news- Mm-hmm ... would it be a good start to just ask ourselves when we're feeling really triggered, ready to go to war with someone, to just stop and say, "Huh, this is interesting. Why am I reacting like this?

Why is my reaction so strong and intense?" Is that a useful beginning point?

[00:08:32] Abby Ferber: I think it definitely is. You know, people often talk about reflecting on our own behaviors with curiosity, and I think that's really an important point to start, is to think about why those things are triggering us, if they're connected to maybe some deeper unconscious patterns or experiences we had when we were younger, and work through th- that dynamic, right?

It doesn't mean those things aren't gonna trigger us anymore, but at least we understand more about where that deep emotional response is coming from and why, and also help us to think through, you know, maybe do we need to make some changes in our life so that we're not exposing ourselves to something that's really triggering over and over and over again, or think about some new ways we can respond to kind of redirect the way we think about the issues that's, you know, healthier for us, healthier for the world.

[00:09:30] Sam Fuqua: How does that work in the moment in a classroom? And if someone, say, calls someone out in a, in an confrontational or negative way, how do you respond or how do the other students respond? Is there a typical strategy there?

[00:09:48] Abby Ferber: Yeah, that's a great question. And I wanted to just mention for our listeners that I co-direct this amazing program every summer called the Knappzac Institute, Transforming Teaching and Learning, and it's open to the public because we're all educators in some sense.

And so we focus a lot on this question because it's something so vexing for all of us, whether we're educators or not, right? What do we do in the moment? And those kind of, you know, emotional explosions happen, people call each other out, and so there's lots of tools and strategies we can use in the moment.

So besides other strategies of, you know, preempting, I think, you know, one is, is having some kind of community agreement or basic ground rules for conversations. A lot of people do that, and it's really important that all the people involved agree to those and help build them rather than just being told, "These are the rules for our discussion."

People need to feel invested in the conversations. Then also, I always recommend to people If someone says something in your class or in another setting, all of a sudden out of the blue you're shocked, you don't know how to respond, there's a number of things you can do. You know, one is you can say, "Okay, I can tell, you know, this is an issue that we have a wide range of feelings about.

Let's stop. Everyone take out a piece of paper and write down what you're feeling right now." And so that helps to diffuse the emotion, you know, a little bit and have people stop and reflect. Another way you can do that is ask people to s- to stop and write down perhaps the answer to a question you pose, or just how are you feeling right now, and then have them crumple it up.

And don't put their name on it, but have them crumple it up. You toss them all in the middle of the room, and then each student goes and picks one out of the pile, and you go around and each student reads one, but it's not their own. And so it, it, students don't feel as vulnerable that way. It's not, you're not reading what it is you feel, but you're reading what another student feels.

And in that way, students really open up to seeing what their other classmates are feeling that they may have had no idea about. They may start to feel like they need to be accountable for what they're saying a little bit more, and it helps everyone to just see each other's perspectives. And usually at that point, you can move on to a more productive discussion and talk about why people may have been feeling angry or sad or upset, and move on in a more pr- positive way.

Another thing, one other thing I just always tell people is you can always come back to the discussion. So if you really don't know what to do in the moment or it's just really too, too difficult, you don't wanna say the wrong thing, you don't wanna do the wrong thing, you can just say, "Okay, this is a really important topic.

We're gonna come back to this next class. I'm gonna, maybe I'm gonna go do a little bit of research about the issue so we can have a more informed discussion about this. So between now and then, you know, think about it. Maybe write down why you're feeling the way you are, and then we'll come back to it next class."

And then that gives you time to go and talk to colleagues and ask for support to figure out how you're gonna really respond next time. But you never wanna just leave it and not respond, right? Because it's our job to, you know, support our students that are being harmed by those kinds of interactions.

[00:13:22] Alexis Miles: That sounds like a good idea. Yeah. And I'm wondering if the matrix that you created, I think you call it the matrix of privilege and oppression, I wonder if that's also helpful. Because without knowing much more about it other than the name, I'm guessing that it helps people see some of the complexities instead of, uh, uh, just seeing everything in a binary.

You're right, I'm wrong. You're privileged, I'm not privileged. I'm, I'm guessing that it helps us identify- Yeah. Yeah ... places where we are privileged and not privileged, and to be more nuanced in our understanding.

[00:13:58] Abby Ferber: Definitely. And that is really its goal, to provide an intersectional perspective, because we all have multiple intersecting identities.

We're never just our race or just our gender. And then also to provide a more historical and cultural context so that we're not just focusing on us as individuals, but we see the larger structures and the history that's brought us to where we are. Would you like me to describe

[00:14:27] Alexis Miles: the matrix? I would love to hear your description of it, yeah.

[00:14:31] Abby Ferber: Okay. So if you imagine four concentric circles, and in the middle, the smallest circle, is where you would place yourself. So, you know, if you draw a little circle, you would write me in the middle. Then the next circle are all of our intersecting identities, all of the ways in which we classify people and treat them in different ways in our culture.

And so that would include things like race, sex, gender, sexuality, social class, ability and disabilities, nationality, et cetera. And so there you can think about it in terms of who you are and think about which of those intersecting identities are places where you are part of a group that is oppressed within our culture, or you gain privileges, whether you want them or not in our society, because you're placed in one of those constructed categories.

Then the third ring provides the larger context of the social. And so the third ring consists of various institutions like education, the media, health and medicine, criminal justice system and law. Those are just a few examples. And so then you can think about turning the rings around almost like a kaleidoscope and think about, okay, using myself as an example, I am white, Jewish, heterosexual woman, and I can think about, okay, in the realm of education, right, as one of the institutes, how are those various identities, how do they intersect to shape my experiences?

The privileges I have as someone who was born upper middle class a- and still is, uh, the privileges I have as someone who is seen as white, and also the ways in which I've experienced oppression as a woman and at times as a Jewish woman. And then the fourth outer ring is just consists of two things, historical time and geographic place.

So it's time and space. Because the ways in which we are treated in the world, which of our identities are most important, not only has to do with the institutions we move within and out, but- You know, what decade it is, what, what century it is, whether we're living in the rural South or New York City or Paris or, you know, Ghana.

And so all of those contexts play a significant role in shaping what our experiences of oppression and privilege are. And I, and we, uh, the co-directors of the Knappzac Institute, and I, and me and my fellow teachers, we always have students do an activity as well with this privilege matrix and try and identify, you know, what, what do these intersections look like for them as an individual, right?

And see their own intersecting identities that bring them privilege or oppression. And I've never, ever found that there was someone who was only privileged in every way. And so that's a great starting point then, and it really makes the concept of privilege easier for students to understand because they can see that every one of them has generally some form of privilege, and no one has none.

And so when they all see, oh, we're not only privileged, I do have some experiences of oppression, people let down their guard. They realize that there are commonalities among everyone in that group, and that we can then have conversations about what that privilege and oppression looks like in our own lives and in that, you know, institutional, historical, cross-cultural context, which takes things beyond just the way we act and interact in the world, but helps us to see how those privileges and oppression have become systemic and have endured over time, and yet also look different in different contexts.

[00:18:39] Alexis Miles: It seems like you're tracing the dynamics of power across any identity. Like, there is this force called power that's at play, and we are figuring out, um, how, how it impacts us. You know, whether we're privileged or not privileged or a combination and, and all of that.

[00:19:00] Abby Ferber: Yeah, absolutely. And power is, you know, what's most important for us to focus on in systems of privilege and oppression because they wouldn't be there, these social identities wouldn't be problematic if it weren't for the relationships of power that seek to put us in categories so they can exploit us.

And- For me also as a sociologist, a sociological perspective always asks, you know, if we have these identities that are constructed, race is a social construct we know, and all these other social identities are constructs, then we have to ask, well, why? Why do we construct these categories in the first place?

Because there's many other ways we could construct, you know, define people. Why do we pick these characteristics? When did we do it? How did we do it? And who benefits? Right? Because we can categorize the world in many, many, many ways, and, you know, why have these certain ones such as race and sex become so enmeshed in our lives?

[00:20:06] Alexis Miles: So Abby, to follow up on your response about the matrix that you've developed, are people surprised once they identify their multiple privileges and areas where they're not privileged, are people surprised with what they find?

[00:20:22] Abby Ferber: Yes, they, they are really, and everyone is. Because, you know, I could share a few examples.

In one class I was teaching on race and ethnicity, a Latina student said to me, "This is the first time I haven't been in a class on race where I felt like I was having to educate everyone else all the time, and where I felt like it was always about showing how I am part of an oppressed group." And she said, "For the first time, I see that I also have privileges.

And that helps me feel empowered then." Because for example, she found that that was one way in which she could, you know, serve as an ally to her s- fellow students who are gay and lesbian and transgender i- in our class. And so it really helped build those connections and really help people to see, you know, where they do have power and not just focusing on oppression.

And so often, I think historically, when we teach a class like race and ethnicity, a standard class in sociology and many other kinds of fields, we've often taught it as a us versus them kind of problem, right? You know, white people versus all people of color. And then people get into these, you know, hardened categories like, you know, "Well, I didn't do this to you, and so you can't blame me," or, you know, "Why did you do this?"

And it, that's not what it's about. It's about looking at how we're all a part of this same society and have been put into these categories whether we like it or not. We didn't create them. But now that we're in them, what does that mean? How can we be accountable to one another? What do we do with it?

What do we wanna change? Abby

[00:22:12] Sam Fuqua: Ferber, topics such as those that you teach Have been under attack for the past few years, perhaps longer than that. I s- ask you to comment based on your long experience teaching. It feels like, as an observer, it's a, it's a very difficult time to be teaching the things you're teaching.

[00:22:34] Abby Ferber: It is a difficult time, and as you pointed out, it's not totally new. We've been facing similar problems, you know, since some of these fields, like I, I chair Women's and Ethnic Studies, so, you know, fields like race and ethnicity and sexuality and gender have been under attack as long as they've been in existence.

But the kinds of attacks are really different right now because they're coming from the, the federal government, right, through e- executive orders against anything that could be defined as related to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And then we're facing threats from the government that they'll pull federal funding.

We've seen, um, huge def- defunding of government grants that so many professors depend upon. We've been experiencing book bans. That's, you know, at K through 12 level, those have been extensive the last few years. They've just exponentially exploded, and now we're starting to see books being forced on faculty at some universities.

And then we have all these legislative gag orders at the state level and, you know, voted on by boards of education, boards of regents. We're also facing right now program closures. Many gender studies programs across the country have been shut down. And one of the ways I first became interested in all of these issues was quite a while back when I was working with the White Privilege Conference, which has been really so important to my growth personally and intellectually.

But when I worked with the White Privilege Conference, a number of us were being attacked through cyber harassment, cyber abuse, and that's really increased dramatically now. But, you know, that started a few decades ago, where there's attempts to silence faculty, especially faculty who are people of color, LGBTQ, women, et cetera, and then also faculty who teach this sub- kind of subject matter, which, you know, right now is really systematically being wiped clean fr- wiped out of our histories and our landscapes as well.

What are the appropriate responses? Well, I think the responses have to, have to happen on multiple levels. So on the one hand, we need to f- we need to respond within our own schools, right, our own universities. And faculty around the country are facing these battles with their own administrators and on their own campus, and some with a great deal of support from their administration, and some with very little.

And then we also have to focus on, you know, our local elections. Our, for example, in Colorado, for University of Colorado, our board of regents are elected, not appointed as they are some other places. So anywhere in which we have elected officials with control over our systems of education, we need to be involved.

We need to work at the state level. But then we also have to work together across the country, because that's really where our power lies. You know, the huge numbers of people that want to be un- wanna be learning and teaching a fuller, truer history of the United States, those numbers outweigh the number of people that want to attack DEI.

Research has shown the majority of people are against these kinds of attacks on DEI, and so we need to mobilize and work together to fight back.

[00:26:21] Alexis Miles: Are you individually seeing these kinds of harassment and attacks against the kind of work that you do and have been doing for decades?

[00:26:32] Abby Ferber: Yes, and yeah, that is how I first got interested in this, because when I worked with the White Privilege Conference, I came under attack and, you know, just received tons of horrible emails that were, you know, to some degree threatening, but also just disgusting and cruel and bitter.

And I saw other people who were involved in the White Privilege Conference also facing that kind of harassment and abuse. And it can be really scary. You never know when people make threats if it's just a threat or not. And I think in some cases, those kinds of threats and harassment have been successful in silencing some people.

And you know, we've had, there are faculty members who have had to leave their jobs and leave the country because the threats were so real. And so coming under, you know, attack myself and seeing other close colleagues coming under attack is why I first started studying the dynamics of cyber harassment and abuse.

And that then led to these broader areas that, where this harassment has really intensified and expanded to the whole of higher, higher education today. Another point I wanted to make about all of these attacks, you know, these multi-pronged- attacks to censor higher education and silence faculty and control what we can or can't teach, they're all linked together and linked to changes in other social institutions today that we see happening across the country by a network of billionaire funders who have many different foundations and ways of donating money.

There's some great books out there, one by Isaac Kamola about the Koch family, uh, Tracing the Money, because it's really dark money that's being poured into organizations that are attacking our universities, attacking DEI in any form, everywhere and anywhere. Also gerrymandering, shifting the who can and can't vote.

All of those things are so tied together and being funded by the same donors. And so it's really important, I think, for us to understand what's going on within that broader context of where and why this is happening.

[00:29:06] Alexis Miles: Well, Abby, how would you respond to people who say things like, "Ah, that's just a bunch of con- conspiracy theories."

"That's not real." How would you respond to those people?

[00:29:17] Abby Ferber: Yeah, I would say sometimes there are conspiracies. You know, conspira- they're not always just theories or myths. And if you actually sit down and read the research and look at the paths of funding, I think most people would understand what it is, I'm, you know, I'm explaining.

But you can look at, you know, one family and how many institutes, think tanks, far-right organizations, school organizations, um, legal institutions, uh, institutes that are, you know, defining new ways of creating law. It, it's just so, you know, institution-wide and really comes down to the funding of a, a small number of people, because none of this would be successful to the degree it has been if it weren't for that kind of money.

And what's also interesting and scary is that it produces, they've worked to produce the, the myth that this is a grassroots movement when, as I pointed out before, the majority of people do not agree with these attacks. And also, you know, it's absolutely wrong. A lot of the websites that have been created make things look like they're grassroots efforts.

For example, networks of parents who are upset about what their tea- their schools are teaching their kids about having LGBTQ books in their libraries, et cetera, and many of them that are made to look like- Average people who are just frustrated and upset creating these websites and building this movement are actually not.

They're funded and set up, constructed, and people are trained by these very right-wing organizations that are extremely highly funded.

[00:31:09] Alexis Miles: So it sounds like it's organized, it's concerted-

[00:31:14] Abby Ferber: Yes, it- And, and

[00:31:14] Alexis Miles: it's well-funded. There's a lot of money behind it.

[00:31:19] Abby Ferber: Yes. And so very well organized, very strategic, and also sustainable.

Organizations like Turning Point USA, which I think people became aware of when Charlie Kirk was killed, th- they have been training college students for decades. They've been around a long time, and so many of the people today, you know, lawyers, judges, administrators, people who are in positions of power, politicians certainly, have come through things like the Turning Point training program that produces new generations of right-wing leaders.

And they say that that's what their goal is on their website, and there's other organizations like that. So they have a really, um, brilliant structure set up to keep producing new generations of leaders that will continue to promote that agenda and continue to reproduce this harm.

[00:32:22] Alexis Miles: Are there some websites that you can name that people can go to to get a more balanced view or to get more information about these attacks on democracy, um, higher education, et cetera?

[00:32:39] Abby Ferber: Sure. I mean, I, I think I can focus on higher education specifically. Um, the American Association of University Professors has a great website with lots of resources, and another organization called PEN America, so it's capital P-E-N and then capital A, America, uh, does great work on, you know, tracing the legislative gag orders, documenting harassment and abuse, and they've created many wonderful tools that people can use.

They conduct trainings, and many of them are recorded and on their website, and that's really a great resource to understand what's going on at a meta level and also ways that we can fight back, you know, in our own neighborhoods where we are, on our campuses and our workplaces.

[00:33:31] Sam Fuqua: Well, as we wind down here, I wanna bring it back to your KNAPSAC Institute because if I heard you correctly, it's, uh, available to, to anybody.

Is that right, Abby? And, uh, tell us a little bit more about it and how people can engage.

[00:33:48] Abby Ferber: Sure, I'd love to share that with you. And I, I'm so excited about it because we're now in our third decade, and I learn so much every year from the people who come and join us. It's really like a learning community, and every year it's different.

We keep the curriculum updated based on what's going on at the moment. And it is open to educators in the widest sense of the term. And so we have faculty, we have staff, administrators, we have people from different, uh, health organizations, social workers, people who work in nonprofits, and really anyone who's committed to building inclusive cultures and inclusive environments.

And it's a three-day institute. This year it will be June 22nd through the 24th, and it's virtual. Since COVID, we've remained virtual so that it can be more accessible for people around the country to participate. And it's three days of, uh, workshops and talks. It's all extremely interactive, and it's also very, very much strategy-focused.

And people work on action plans throughout the three days and leave with concrete tools and strategies and a plan that they're going to be working on. And then we have a couple follow-up meetings in the year as the year goes on to provide additional support. And people really become part of a community and leave with others that they stay in touch with and others they can turn to when they're facing problems, when they don't know how to deal with certain situations they find themselves in.

But we would love to have, you know, anyone who's interested join us. There is a registration fee, but this year, because we know it's more and more difficult, especially people from higher education or K through 12, to get any funding whatsoever from their institutions, we have slashed the registration fees in half.

And the registration fee just goes to cover the cost of putting this on, that's all. And so we would love people to join us, and I encourage people to reach out. They can email me. They can go to the University of Colorado Colorado Springs website or just Google Knapsack Institute and it will come up.

And the, the name Knapsack Institute, as our listeners may have guessed, comes from Peggy McIntosh's iconic paper on Knapsack, the Knapsack of Privileges. And so we worked with her at the very beginning when we founded the institute and other scholars who work in this field who are really generous with their, their time and their support.

[00:36:33] Alexis Miles: Are there other things that give you hope in these days of so much turbulence and uncertainty?

[00:36:42] Abby Ferber: I think my students give me hope, right? Seeing my students awaken to what's going on and really start to understand what's going on in the country and their positioning within it, that really gives me hope.

And I think also understanding how much of a threat we really are to see this kind of huge backlash tells me that we have been successful to some degree in our efforts, and I don't think we'd be facing these challenges now if that wasn't the case. And so that makes me feel hopeful because I know there are so many of us out here, many more who want to promote open, inclusive, diverse, anti-oppression spaces and create more positive change in the world.

We outnumber those who don't, and so we really need to keep that in mind and think about how we can work together.

[00:37:43] Sam Fuqua: Abby Ferber, thank you for spending time with us, and thank you for your work. Thank you both. I've really enjoyed this. Abby Ferber is a professor in sociology and women's and ethnic studies at the University of Colorado Colorado Springs.

She's also director of the Matrix Center for the Advancement of Social Equity and Inclusion, which is home to the KNAPSACK Institute. You can learn more about the institute at their website, knapsack, that's K-N-A-P-S-A-C-K, .uccs.edu.

Thanks for listening to Well, That Went Sideways. We produce new episodes twice a month. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts and on our website, sidewayspod.org. Our site has information on our guests, interview transcripts, and links to more conflict resolution resources. And we encourage you to sign up for our newsletter.

That's at sidewayspod.org. Our production team is Mary Zinn, Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles, Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua. Our theme music is by Mike Stewart. We produce these programs in Colorado on the traditional lands of the Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute nations. To learn more about the importance of land acknowledgement, visit our website, sidewayspod.org.

And this podcast is a partnership with the Conflict Center, a Denver-based nonprofit that provides practical skills and training for addressing everyday conflicts. Find out more at conflictcenter.org.