Published: December 3, 2025Dante King: People can remain in denial if they want to, but I think what people don't fully understand is that we are talking about the intentionality of inhumanity that has been targeted toward and aimed at people, and we are still dealing with the fallout from it.

Sam Fuqua: That's Dante King, and this is Well, That Went Sideways! A podcast that serves as a resource to help people have healthy, respectful communication. We present a diversity of ideas, tools, and techniques to help you transform conflict in relationships of all kinds. In this episode, we talk with Dante King on diagnosing whiteness and anti-blackness. He is an academic who has taught at many universities, including the Mayo Clinic School of Medicine. He runs an educational nonprofit called Blackademics. And, Dante King is the author of two books, The 400 Year Holocaust and Diagnosing Whiteness and Anti-Blackness. We spoke with him at the 2025 White Privilege Conference.

I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of the program with Alexis Miles. Hi Alexis.

Alexis Miles: Hello Sam.

Sam Fuqua: And we're really pleased to welcome back to Well, That Went Sideways! Dante King. Hi.

Dante King: Hello. Thank you for having me back.

Alexis Miles: Dante, it has been electrifying to hear you speak over this conference, the White Privilege Conference. So, I wanna dive right in if that's okay with you?

Dante King: Certainly.

Alexis Miles: So, the first time you appeared on our show, you had just written The 400 Year Holocaust. Now, you've released a new book called Diagnosing Whiteness and Anti-Blackness: White Psychopathology, Collective Psychosis, and Trauma in America. So, if you would start us off by just saying briefly what the first book was about, what the second book was about, and why you felt it was necessary to come out with the second book at this time in US history.

Dante King: I'll try to be as succinct as possible, but there are layers to this answer. I think the first edition of the book that was released back in 2021, that was me sharing with the world a version of history that I felt hadn't been told under the guise of very systematically ill willed, uh, actions and behaviors that were exhibited intentionally, uh, by phenotypically European white people toward those that they perceive to be phenotypically non-white. And, I wanted to shine a light on the intentionality of, uh, of anti-blackness, and how it was codified into the legal structure, and into the institutional and cultural structure. And so, it was, kind of, a, a just, a telling of some of the research that I had, uh, found. And then, the difference with this edition, with this version, is that it's amplifying, um, the, some of the same aspects and examples, uh, many more though, but it's also highlighting a number of things.

One, that white people suffer from, uh, white, white people derangement syndrome. And the reason that I say that is because, uh, white people are not white at all. And yet, uh, by adopting that color concept back in the 1700s, and they've been identifying by that term or by that color concept for, for centuries now, it has become ingrained as a part of their identity. And so, they have an attachment to it. So, even when white people hear maybe let's say criticisms about whiteness or white racism, it is so deep that it causes, uh, a visceral reaction many times. And so, but I also had to go on this journey to investigate, uh, blackness and black people because we too suffer from white people derangement syndrome because our psychology has been shaped by white American institutions, educational institutions. We function by their language, their logic, standards, beliefs, values, the whole nine. And, one of the main values of white identity is anti-blackness. And so, I am on this journey, and still on this journey, investigating and interrogating how these color concepts were infused into the society for the purpose of superiorizing one group of people and inferiorizing everyone else who does not fit into that phenotypical framework. And, most severely disenfran, disfranchising and targeting people who are labeled, perceived as, and characterized as black.

Alexis Miles: So Dante, there are people, especially these days who will say to you, to your face, "Dante, you are so woke. None of this is true. This is just propaganda. There is no historical evidence that anything you're saying is true." How would you respond to them?

Dante King: Well, and I so appreciate you asking that question 'cause that, I think that's something, that's, I experienced earlier on or early on in my, in my career, speaking career. And that was a motivator for me because as I was on my journey finding factual information, not woke information or not information where I formed an opinion and then began to present it through my own opinion or, or vantage point, but that this, this was actual, uh, these were laws. We're talking about legality. And so, there's nothing here to be refuted. These are the things that European people felt that they needed to do in order to orchestrate the white imperialist empire. And, they did it with great intention. And so, if you read into the language of the laws, um, as you both know, because we've been together, uh, before, it goes into great detail concerning European people's intentions for themselves and also for black people. And so, if we think about, um, and I'll just share one, but the Casual Killing Act, how that law created a permission structure to just outright murder black people with impunity and that their murders would not be accompted a felony of any sort, but that the person would be let off the hook, so to speak. So, I am not woke. I am on a journey of searching for the truth, and I'm still on that journey. As I mentioned, I have over 20,000 legal examples. So, what we're dealing with is fact in reality. And, anyone wanting to refute that is choosing to live in a delusion and be in denial because these things happened.

Alexis Miles: Because anybody, anybody who can read, can go out and find these documents because this is legislation in many cases.

Dante King: It is.

Alexis Miles: That's written. That's findable.

Dante King: Absolutely. And, so there was a, an older gentleman today after my talk who came up to me and he, he says, "How would I be able to find this information?" And I said, "Well, do you have a library card? Because if you have a library card, you can go into any library database across the United States right now and begin to go to each colony in each state. And, all you have to do is go back to those source documents, um, legal documents, and it's written into the law for each colony in each state." And so, it's just a matter of people taking the time and wanting to commit to that process. But this is not Dante King's version of laws and policies. This is what happened in America.

Sam Fuqua: And it is horrifying, if I may just interject, uh, and I encourage listeners to, uh, listen to our first conversation with you and read your books. I mean, I'm remembering things like it was legal to rape a girl who was owned as property by a, a white slave owner.

Dante King: Absolutely. And I think, um, under English common law, we have to also understand that up until around 1890, I, I think it maybe 1899, it was legal for men to marry girls as early as 12 years of age. And so, we have to understand that having, you know, grown men who are twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, go out and find 12, 13, 14-year-old girls to marry, we're calling it marriage, that, that is pedophilia. And so, by law and by custom, pedophilia, it was validated. It was facilitated through the legal structure. It's a cultural pattern. Um, rape is involved there as well. It is a cultural pattern. And particularly the rapes of indigenous women and, and mostly black women in this country, their bodies were economized. And so, even when we speak about gross domestic product, we cannot speak about gross domestic product without speaking about the enshrinement of racial slavery to the uterus and vaginas of black women, to indigenous women.

And so, to be in denial about these realities of the facts, to Alexis's point, as this information is findable, but still to deny it and reject it, and/or have resentment because these truths are being spoken through a black body, it really is just detestable. We, we have to want to do better. We have to be, get on a journey where we are willing to commit to doing better and being better because again, this is not about Dante King at all. This is about who we are as a people, how we've evolved, how we've got, gotten to where we are in this moment, and where we're going. And I think, even right now in this political moment, so much of what I'm saying is being evidenced, is being reinforced. We have a president who just a few years ago, I believe this was October 2023 when he was being deposed in the E. Jean Carroll, uh, case, he admitted to sexual predation, and his rationale was, "This is what stars do, and we've been doing it for a million years." He was asked, "Did you make this claim that you just grab women by the P?" He says, "Yes, this is what stars do, and we've been doing it for a million years." So, we're talking about cultural and behavioral and psychological patterns.

Alexis Miles: So many things are coming to mind, so I'm, I'm gonna try to pull a couple of them in. One is a comment that I, for, I lived in Mississippi for twelve years as a child, and there was something called the Sovereignty Commission. Their whole existence was to separate the races, and in fact, during apartheid in South Africa, they consulted with the Mississippi Sovereignty Commission on how to keep the races se, separate and not equal. So, enshrined in a state and probably other states as well, is structural, legal, judicial apartheid.

Dante King: Absolutely. And, if we go back to the late 1800s going into the 20th century, I located so many scientific anthropological theories on black inferiority, which was a discipline that one could go and study, uh, within and throughout all American institutions, Yale, University of Pennsylvania, Harvard. The study of phenology, which said that, you know, black people had less bumps on the skull, so therefore they were timid and needed to have masters. The study of physionomy, which said that you could just look at a black person and based on their features, based on their color, based on the texture of their hair, that they were behaviorally, morally, and intellectually inferior in every way, right, and that this was scientific. So, you have those scientific theories evolving at the same time as you have these court rulings that are happening that suggest that black women are promiscuous, they're immoral, they can be raped. And, as well as black men who are being, um, positioned as predators in this culture.

But the reason that I'm highlighting this in this way is because this then feeds into what becomes the eugenical sciences, and they make up a body of the eugenical sciences. And, the legal community, uh, court system, in particular, began to use this scientific evidence to justify why black people needed to live separately from white people because we carry different diseases, um, we were intellectually inferior, and they also didn't want race mixing. And so, in 1926, the US Supreme Court ruled in Corrigan v. Buckley, that racially restrictive covenants could be recognized as legally binding documents. And they also ruled in the same year, Euclid v. Ambler, that cities and locales could zone by race. And then the very next year, in 1927, in the Buck v. Bell ruling, they, uh, basically established that compulsory sterilization of the unfit did not violate the due process clause of the 14th amendment. And so, you have the precursor of what became the sterilization movement, uh, that the Nazi party adopted in the 1930s, but it, uh, formed here in America, in the US, prior to that happening.

And Adolf Hitler, who was a, a, an avid studier of people like Dr. Madison Grant, who wrote the book, The Passing of the Great Race, Dr. Irving Fisher from Yale, and David Hoffman, who wrote the book, Race Traits and Tendencies of the American Negro in 1896, that all of these things were put in motion to enact genocide against black people. Because the belief was, is that if we can compulsory sterilize them, if we can put them in ghettos away from white people, but also establish industry that we can be done with black people in 100 years, and that's what Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is saying in the Buck v. Bell ruling, he says, "It is better for the world, instead of waiting till these people become criminals that, you know, while they're babies, before we let them starve to death, to death, we can just go around and compulsory sterilize the people that we don't want in this country. The people who are not, uh, of any value." And it's, what's interesting, and I'll, I'll end with this point, I had a doctor by the name of Dr. Smith who took my course, a medical course that I, I was teaching at UCSF, and he admitted that in, between 1971 and 1974 when he was a resident at Duke University, he says, "We went around, I worked with the state eugenics board, and we went around and located 16-year-old black virgins, and gave them hysterectomies," and I will never forget that.

Alexis Miles: Dante, this information flies in the face of people saying we live in a colorblind society based on meritocracy. And so, that is both a belief and a value held by, I would say, many people in this country. And, you are saying just the opposite. This is not a colorblind society. It was not meant to be a colorblind society. And in fact, is deeply rooted in the color of one's skin.

Dante King: Right. I mean, it's in my mother's experiences. My mom is 73, and she was, while she was born in San Francisco in 1952, when she and my grandfather and grandmother and her siblings took trips to Texas every year, there came a point where they had to enter in the back of buildings. They couldn't be served in the front of buildings. These buildings had "Whites Only" signs on them. Even in San Francisco, she experienced discrimination. She was the first class in 1962 to integrate Louis Williams Stevenson, uh, Elementary School in the fifth grade. So, I mean, there were signs during my mom's lifetime, "Whites Only." She had to enter the Woolworth, uh, through the back door. Even in San Francisco, she had to ride the back of the bus. So, you know, people can remain in denial if they want to, but I, I think what people don't fully understand is that we are talking about the intentionality of inhumanity that has been targeted toward and aimed at people, and we are still dealing with the fallout from it. I mean, I'm here with you right now, almost about to go to tears because of what I have to endure every day, just being black in this society. And so, when you deny colorism, when you deny racism, you are denying my humanity, and you're denying my experience.

And so, I really try to, um, absent myself from spaces like that or in, in people who want to deny or who are unwilling to take a look and deal with the realities of the dynamics that we find ourselves just saturated, uh, in because all it does is it, it drives further fru, frustration, anxiety, rage, and anger. And I, I'm doing everything that I can to keep my environment peaceful. So, I just, I can't even begin to contend with or engage with people who want to deflect, or denial, or who are unwilling to learn, to learn their history. This is not just our history. It's their history because, and I will say this too, the main focus, I would say the, the foremost focus of my work is, is really looking at how whiteness evolved and white people and white history. It's not, um, only about what was done to black people, what was done to indigenous people. That is a part of it. But every legal example that I have is an action that white people took. And so, this is necessarily white history. And so, for white people to want to exempt themselves from it because it doesn't align with the, uh, ordinary and normalized narcissistic narratives that we hear about how great white people are, I understand that 'cause it's been incredibly painful for me to face too, understanding my participation in whiteness and white supremacy culture as well as in anti-nonwhiteness and anti-blackness. I understand the impulse to want to push, push away, but unless we face it, we will not be able to enter into true relationships with each other. It cannot happen.

Sam Fuqua: Can I ask you about some of those spaces where you, you feel like you have to just not go there, be absent? I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, one of those spaces is much of our media today. Is that correct?

Dante King: For sure, for sure. When I began to uncover just how powerful media was, there's a, a cartoon that I located on my research journey, and I guess, how many years, 35 years, 36 years before I was born, and this is in, in the 1940s, they were producing content that featured imagery of what would be, what I guess was going, should have been interpreted as black people in cartoon features called Lazy Town. And they're fighting. And then they've got this stereotypical large character who's supposed to be a black woman, dark black woman, but she's the, supposed to be Mammy or Aunt Jemima. And then, they've got these stereotypical, uh, mulatto black woman who's got all these curves and she's telling Mammy how to wash the clothes. And these, uh, just very, I, I can't even describe, put it into words, but when I found this, I go, oh my God, this is what white children and black children and everyone was watching on Saturday mornings. And so, when we trace this back through media, the mainstream media, what has been circulated through the black community in term, and e, and even the creation of black identity in white people determining what we would be allowed to do, what we're not allowed to do, but then also having the institutions to project to the world what it means to be black.

Even when we think of shows, right? If we go back to the 1960s, 1970s, Good Times, The Jeffersons, all of those had white, white, screenwriters, scriptwriters. Those are not black shows that were created by black people. But the other piece to this too is I'm also questioning what does it mean to be black? Because this was an identity that was projected onto us, and meant for our subjugation and oppression. So, the only way in which we know ourselves is through oppression. And, the only ways in which white people and non-white people are in touch with black people is through our oppression and subjugation, which is why most people expect us to be disempowered. And when you have someone who is black and they're speaking confidently from an empowered place, that rubs people the wrong way because the cultural orientation is dis, disempowerment. And so, we see that through the media. We see it, uh, just incessantly. And, you're either a drug dealer, you're either a, a father that's not in the home, you're either a gangster, you're either, you know, and that's what's projected not just to our community, but to society at large. And, it sends a message because it's, it's infusing into people's psychology that this is who these individuals are and this is how you should relate to them, always. And it's uncivil, and it's inhumane.

Sam Fuqua: I'm curious about your experience as an author who wants to get the word out about their book and their work. We're a podcast that has a few thousand listeners, people who are interested in issues of racial and social justice, but I'm, I'm sure, correct me if I'm wrong, you've also been interviewed by what we might consider more mainstream media outlets, and how has that experience been?

Dante King: You know, it's, it's been great and I'm grateful for the diversity of thought, the diversity of questions, and the different kinds of, of spaces that I'm in. I think each interviewer has provided me with the opportunity to challenge myself in terms of how I think, but also come to being in conversation with various types of people, with different questions and different backgrounds and experiences. So that, that's been phenomenal. I also can say though, that it, the part that's been challenging is as I have been on a circuit doing more media and doing more mainstream media, I had not given an account or accounted for this variable of my profile being raised, or more people coming to know my work. And, so, I started being tapped on the shoulder. I started being engaged by people, you know, out in the street or if I go to a conference, people are coming up to me that I don't know, and that began to be somewhat challenging for me because outside of my work, I'm an introvert.

Sam Fuqua: But people are recognizing you now.

Dante King: Yeah. Yeah. And so, I had to go "Wait," and so they're like, "Oh, yeah, I heard your interview on Urban View." "Oh, I, I, you know, I read, you know, the article that you gave or the interview that you gave to the Guardian or to the Hill," and that's been riveting. And, I'm, I'm appreciative of it, but I'm also somewhat apprehensive because I've received a lot of violent threats, uh, some death threats, and so I, I don't know what people's intentions are, and so I'm just trying to stay focused, be grateful for the calling that has been put on my life or into my life, and do the work that I've been given to do.

Alexis Miles: A lot of people feel really uncomfortable hearing this, let alone thinking about this because something feels off. Something, you know, it just feels like, well, this is not what I was taught. How do you advise people to deal with that discomfort they feel so that they don't even wanna look at this or think about this?

Dante King: So, I wanna, um, first, make sure I understand what you're saying. And second, um, I, I, I think is, it's different for, for different people. So, when you say a lot of people feel uncomfortable, I presume you're speaking about white people.

Alexis Miles: White people, yes.

Dante King: OK. Because even this morning, for example, when I asked the black people to stand up in the room, if they could understand or relate to what I was sharing, and we had roughly 99 percent, maybe 100 percent of the black people stand, it's very affirming and validating for us. And so, the, the discomfort comes in many times of us, this history and knowledge being kept from us, but then when we are exposed to it, we realize oh, we're not crazy. This has been going on for centuries with grave intention. And, I think for white people, it does challenge the core of white identity. Absolutely. Because if you've been kept in a bubble, if everything that you've learned is just how great your leaders were, how good, the things that had to happen in order to establish this great country for you, and your people worked really hard, and then someone comes and exposes a host of information that's been kept from you because those pieces, while they too may be true and are true within a certain context, it's not the full story.

And so, if someone comes to you and says, here's the other part of the story, and it is opposite of everything that you've learned your entire life, everything that your parents and grandparents learned, that can cause someone a breakdown. And so, I un, I definitely understand and have empathy for those people who say, this is incredible, this, this is too much. I had a white woman say to me, this had to be about six or seven years ago, she says, "I feel molested. I feel like I need to go home and take a shower because I feel like everything that I learned about myself, about my identity, about this country, it was all lies." And I had to tell her, I said, "It's not that it was all lies, but it was told to you through a certain lens and with a certain intent, and that intent was to affirm you, and to make sure that you felt reinforced, and that everything about this country and this culture, and everything that had been done to build this culture was done outta goodwill. And, and it, it's, it's meant that to, to function that way for you as a white identified person. And yet, it has not been the intention of this country or the white organization as a political organization, as a cultural group, as a community, as a whole, for this nation and the culture to function in that way where non-white identified people are concerned, and most severely where black people are concerned, that has not been the intention. But because we are devalued, we are, do not matter. In this culture, we focus on the positives because our generation, our dehumanization, was meant for your good. So, who would reveal that to you? No one."

But I have a lot of empathy and compassion for white people who find it hard to contend with this information because I'm finding it hard to contend with it. I still find it hard. I had to deliver a workshop on Thursday, and the emotions ran so high I just cried on the spot for two minutes. Admit, I, I had no words. It's hard to hear that your grandmother, great-grandmother, great-grandfather, were, you know, positioned as rapists and, and just could be raped and ravaged, and that that was used for economic pro, we're talking about the institution of prostitution. The institution of rape. That is hard to contend with. And so, I, I also cannot cater to the feelings of white people because I'm dealing with my own feelings and the, and the feelings of, of my own community. So, there's just so much wrapped up in all of this, and it is overwhelming for everyone involved.

Sam Fuqua: When we spoke with you a couple years ago at this conference, you were, you were starting, uh, a relatively new position at the time as an adjunct professor at The Mayo Clinic. Uh, how has that experience been, and maybe you can explain to listeners what your role is in that.

Dante King: Sure. So, I had the fortune of meeting several ladies whose names I, I won't mention, um, but they are some brilliant people. I'll just mention them by first names. Barbara, Amy and Shannon. And, uh, we worked together to build some courses. I taught several courses at The Mayo Clinic. Um, I even participated in a medical grand rounds for the Department of Psychiatry and Psychology and, uh, while my adjunct assistant professorship is still in place. You know, I, I do expect for it to be revoked at any moment based on the political climate we're in, because someone complained about my work last year and then they, um, cut all my contracts. They, they cut my work. Um, so that happened last March. My course with U, for UCSF that I had been teaching for almost four years. There's a right wing political group, Young America's Foundation, um, The Daily Wire, they wrote an article, as well as Fox News wrote an article about me, and they ended up stopping my, my course at the University of California, San Francisco Medical School too. So, I'm not actively teaching courses at either institution at this moment. I do still hold the post that was given to me by Mayo Clinic, but like I said, I expect for that to be revoked any moment.

And, I'm, I'm just fortunate that my work reached the doors, the doorsteps of both of those institutions, and that I was allowed to come in and do work with them because that was something that I never saw happening. And when it did happen, I was somewhat, um, shocked because I'm like, are they really understanding what it is I'm doing, what it is I'm saying in my work? And they were, they did, and they were fully supportive and signed on. And I want to make this clear, it is of no doing of anyone within those institutions for the decisions of my work to be cut. They were, um, targeted, and they were going to be targeted and pursued where legal actions were concerned, right? We're in a very tense and volatile political season. We always have been, but even more today. I want to just be very clear about that and, and give a, a shout out to The Mayo Clinic, to the ladies names, uh, who I mentioned, and to Dr. Talmadge King at UCSF, who was the head of the medical school there. He is phenomenal. As well as Dr. Alejandro Rincon, Dr. Renee Navarro. These people were exceptional in their collaboration and in their desire to support my work and me. So that's how things have landed. Thank you though for asking.

Alexis Miles: Dante, if you had to leave listeners with one thing to ponder, to chew on, to reflect on, what would that be?

Dante King: I would say question everything. And, using my book, Diagnosing Whiteness and Anti-Blackness, as a way to start a journey that can lead you into other references and other resources. Um, that's one way. But I was speaking to this guy yesterday and he said, "How do I start educating my children about this?" And I said to him, "Don't. Give your child my book. But hand him President Thomas Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia and just have him start reading the biographies of the Presidents. So much of their positions, what they stood for, their thoughts about black people, about white supremacy, are there. So, just give them, immerse them in, in a history lesson. Don't even start my book. Just give him President Thomas Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia." And this white man looked at me. He said, "Wow, I never thought about that."

Alexis Miles: So, get it straight from the horse's mouth.

Dante King: Yes.

Sam Fuqua: Well, Dante King, great to talk with you again. Thank you for your work and for your time here today.

Dante King: Thank you both of my friends, my, my social justice family members. Really appreciate you.

Sam Fuqua: Dante King is an academic who has taught at many universities, including The Mayo Clinic School of Medicine. He runs an educational nonprofit called Blackademics, and he's the author of two books, The 400 Year Holocaust, and his most recent book, Diagnosing Whiteness and Anti-Blackness. We spoke with him at the 2025 White Privilege Conference. You can find out more at danteking.com. And, Dante King is our first repeat guest on the Sideways Podcast. We first spoke with him in season four. You can find that conversation on our website, sidewayspod.org.

Thanks for listening to Well, That Went Sideways! We produce new episodes twice a month. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts, and on our website, sidewayspod.org. Our site has information on our guests, interview transcripts, and links to more conflict resolution resources. And we encourage you to sign up for our newsletter. That's at sidewayspod.org. Our production team is Mary Zinn, Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles, Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua. Our theme music is by Mike Stewart. We produce these programs in Colorado on the traditional lands of the Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations. To learn more about the importance of land acknowledgement, visit our website sidewayspod.org. And this podcast is a partnership with The Conflict Center, a Denver based nonprofit that provides practical skills and training for addressing everyday conflicts. Find out more at conflictcenter.org.