Curtis Ogden: But when you get people to really sit down, and the benefit of the work we get to do is around food. So, breaking bread is a natural part of, of what we do. And, you know, food and storytelling. Our ancestors have been sitting around tables for centuries, right? Or some form of that, sharing food, having conversation, and you get to know more, more about one another. And, you see each other beyond maybe the first assumptions you might make, or if you only know somebody in an official role and their title, it makes you more curious. That can go a long way towards creating the ground where you can hold tension and still walk away with some respect.

Sam Fuqua: That's Curtis Ogden, and this is Well, That Went Sideways! A podcast that serves as a resource to help people have healthy, respectful communication. We present a diversity of ideas, tools, and techniques to help you transform conflict in relationships of all kinds. In this episode, we talk with Curtis Ogden and with Liz Broussard-Red about ways to organize people and strengthen local food systems in Mississippi and New England. This is the second in our two-part series, exploring how to deal with the conflict between a food system that has the capacity to produce enough food to feed everyone, and the fact that 47 million people in the US are food insecure. Liz Broussard-Red is a co-steward of the Mississippi Center for Food Systems. Curtis Ogden is a senior associate with the Interaction Institute for Social Change, and the lead facilitator for Food Solutions New England. We spoke with them at the 2025 White Privilege Conference in Hartford, Connecticut.

I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of the program with Alexis Miles. Hi Alexis.

Alexis Miles: Hi Sam.

Sam Fuqua: We're very pleased to be joined for this episode of Well, That Went Sideways! by Liz Broussard-Red and Curtis Ogden, both of whom work on food justice issues. Regular listeners to the program will recall that in our last episode, we spoke with Alison Cohen and, uh, Liz and Curtis, Alison really gave us a good overview of some of the structural problems within the food system writ, large. So, we're really looking forward to talking with both of you about the work that you're doing on the ground in New England and Mississippi. Welcome. Thank you for being here.

Curtis Ogden: Thank you.

Liz Broussard-Red: Thank you for having us.

Sam Fuqua: And we're at the 2025 White Privilege Conference. So, the first question some people might be wondering is, what is the connection between white privilege, anti-racism work and food justice? And either of you can take that.

Liz Broussard-Red: There are a, a lot of connections. The work that I do with the Center for Mississippi Food Systems, um, we're an ecosystem of partners in Mississippi of, um, farmers and fishers and teachers and, um, policy makers and community members and nonprofits that are all working together to transform Mississippi's food systems and economies. And, we've been really intentional about doing that work in a way that centers our shared values, beliefs, values and principles. And, one of the values that guides our work is racial equity, specifically. And that was incredibly important, um, to name that as a shared value in our work because, uh, folks of color, black folks, indigenous folks, um, Vietnamese folks, Latinx folks in 

Mississippi, bear some of the, bear the brunt of our, of food insecurity in Mississippi, of wealth inequality, um, and a lot of the issues that Mississippi faces. You know, centering values in our work is also a way to build trust. And so, to be explicit about our value of racial equity helps us, kind of, on that journey of learning together, um, and of trying to be better. It helps, uh, grow our relationships, uh, to be able to build the power necessary to change Mississippi's food systems.

Sam Fuqua: Do you encounter any, I don't know if resistance is the word or, or perhaps a puzzlement like, like, I'm just getting involved to feed hungry people. Why are we having to wade into all this difficult racial justice work?

Liz Broussard-Red: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this work has, has taken some, it's taken us some time to get to this point. Um, so I'll share, you know, my journey. I'm originally from New Hampshire. Um, I went to school in Iowa. Um, I ended up in the south and there've been a lot of different spaces I've been in where even personally kind, I've, you know, I've always been drawn to food work, but I've seen this work from a lot of different lenses from sort of, um, you know, uh, farm to school work where the priority for folks is really about healthy kids and, um, healthy families and nutrition. Um, I've done this, done work with nonprofits that are really about training farmers on new farmer practices or diversifying what farmers grow. There are so many, there have been so many different spaces I've been in where people have, kind of, framed their mission and values in different ways, and there have been a lot of disagreements along the way in some of the spaces that I've been in about what should be prioritized over something else that, you know, whether hunger should be the specific issue, um, or, or more broadly food sovereignty. So yes, absolutely, there have been a lot of instances where conflict has emerged from groups seeing each other as, as, as pitted against each other instead of us all, um, working together towards a common goal.

Sam Fuqua: So, what are, what processes do you go through to, uh, to bring people to that point of trust and realization that it's all connected?

Liz Broussard-Red: Uh, one thing that comes to mind is, you know, at an earlier phase in my work, I remember really being drawn to food as sort of this like big tent issue, like an issue that could, that really anyone could engage with and it would bring people together. Um, but what hap, what happens sometimes is spaces that I thought were inclusive because everyone was in the room, weren't actually inclusive because there were voices in the room that were more powerful than others, and there were folks that still weren't being heard. You know, for me personally, I, kind of, had to reflect about who I really wanted to be in relationship with and who I felt had common shared values. One of the practices, yeah, that we have used that was modeled in that earlier workshop was, was story circles. Story circles can be a powerful way of really listening to one another and hearing one another. And, you know, we did it in, in the exercise earlier today, we had, um, folks split off into groups of four. Um, each person sharing, you know, no interrupting, but you, you know, you deeply listen to the, um, person sharing with the prompt question. And it's, yeah, it's, it's a powerful way to hear one another. And, um, my co-steward, Noelle, was sharing about, uh, the roots of the story circle being used, uh, you know, during the civil rights time to, to help folks really, when there was conflict for folks to really be able to hear, um, and listen to one another.

Curtis Ogden: We do know that story has been, uh, a part of a lot of different social movements, um, throughout the world, uh, and this way of engaging at the level of, um, relationship that sees each other not in these roles, but as our full selves. And so, we know that sometimes, uh, conflict is rooted in the ability to, sort of, make abstractions of one another. It's almost like we make cartoon characters out of each 

other, and then make a lot of assumptions and that can justify, I don't know, a catharsis of anger or something like that. But when you get people to really sit down and the benefit of the work we get to do is around food. So, breaking bread is a natural part of, of what we do. And you know, food and storytelling. Like we've been, our ancestors have been sitting around tables for centuries, right? Or some form of that, sharing food, having conversation, and you get to know more, more about one another, and you see each other beyond maybe the first assumptions you might make, or if you only know somebody in an official role and their title, it gives you, it, it, it makes you more curious. Um, and so, that can go a long way towards, um, creating the ground where you can hold tension and still walk away with some respect, which is what Dr. Moore, Eddie Moore, right, kicked off this conference saying, he says, "We're fam! We're family! Uh, and we're gonna get into it and at the end of the day, we're gonna be good, but we're gonna get into it." And so, uh, creating those conditions is about that love, that relationship, the story. All of those things go a long way.

Alexis Miles: And it seems to me, in this process that is predicated on being totally honest and authentic and not conceptual, so people are telling stories of their direct lived experience, I'm guessing, in these settings. And being listened to with no interruption. I mean, how powerful is that?

Curtis Ogden: Absolutely. Well, it's interesting you say that because sometimes when we invite people into storytelling, you can see literally their wheels turning, well, what should I say? Right? What should I say here? What would be as oppo, and, and the invitation we try to make is drop down into here for those who can't see, I'm saying come down into the heart, and what do you, what do you feel like you want to share? Right. Don't, don't think through what is the right thing here, but what what wants to come up right here because our, our bodies, our heart sense, I think what is around us and can guide us to, towards what we might wanna share in that moment. So, yeah. Yeah. Drop in below the neck line into the heart, into the gut. Very helpful.

Alexis Miles: Can you think of a story that you can share that was very moving or instructional or meaningful from the story circles about food?

Curtis Ogden: I mean, there are so many, honestly. You know, very recently, and I won't, you know, say her name, uh, but, uh, a dear colleague who works in Oklahoma, uh, was sharing the story that she still carries with her about growing up in poverty and being hungry. And, I don't know what it was about that moment, but I've known her for a number of years and, um, you know, she's a "professional," uh, very put together, and in that moment of just hearing her tell her story, it sort of hit me at another level of what she has had to do in her life to get to where she is, and an aha about why she does what she does, because she does it in a place that is very difficult, just like Liz and Mississippi, and yet there's just a part of her experience that explains why she continues to be this warrior for justice where she is. So, that's recent and, you know, again, somebody I've known for a while, but, but that story told very vulnerably and with some emotion really helped me see this person I've known for a while in a new light.

Alexis Miles: And to your point, you earlier talked about that, the need to bring our full humanity into this work, and not just conceptual ideas.

Liz Broussard-Red: I was thinking about how we've been doing story circles within our network, um, with our Mississippi Food Systems fellows. These are groups of leaders. We have a Mississippi Food Systems 

fellowship program that works, um, across central Mississippi, the Mississippi Delta, Mississippi Gulf Coast, and Choctaw, Mississippi, and we've been on a journey with the same group of, um, fellows over the past five years as to nurture their leadership in this food systems work, and build the type of leadership that Mississippi deserves. And, we've been reflecting on the past five years of work and we've used story circles to do that. And, I've been amazed by the way that stories evoke memories. And so, there are pieces of the past five years that I've forgotten and pieces of how our relationships came together in the first place in these story circles by hearing other people share me, their own memories of me and them first meeting me, it's helping me reflect and learn myself better and help, help me see how far we've come together and we've strengthened our relationship. So, there are folks that, uh, that have been in conflict within that group, but just through this story circle process, um, there's been spaces for, for healing and forgiveness and progression of relationships. It's been really powerful.

Curtis Ogden: And, you sharing that makes me think the last session that we just did with Dr. Gabriela Pereira, uh, she was telling, um, the story of, of, uh, black, indigenous, other people of color, um, producers, farmers, and the need to really reclaim stories because, of course, for generations, for certain people, relationship to the land has meant slavery, has meant, you know, forced labor of some kind, has meant not making any money, has meant, uh, physical, I mean real physical toil, um, and mistreatment. And so, uh, storytelling can also be a way of reclaiming a relationship and trying to set it right.

Sam Fuqua: Liz, can you say more about the work in Mississippi? Like, what does it look like day to day, week to week?

Liz Broussard-Red: So, the Center for Mississippi Food Systems, um, includes a few different groups that kind of have come together in this formation. So, I mentioned the Mississippi Food Systems fellowship, that's the leadership pipeline. Um, we also have the Mississippi Food Justice Collaborative. That's a group of nine organizations around the state that work with farmers of color, black farmers, Vietnamese, uh, fishermen, indigenous farmers. And then we have the Mississippi Food Policy Council that's been really focused on, um, really people-centered policy and kind of engaging communities in imagining what policies could look like that would actually support the wellbeing of their communities. And so, it's a lot of relationship building work, I would say is a lot of our day-to-day is, is figuring out how to convene people in right ways, and also to, kind of, model being in right relationship with each other. It's a big part of the work we do. Um, we also focus on narrative work, kind of, how we share our stories and share our histories. Focus on policy. Work and visioning, kind of, what future infrastructure for food systems could look like in Mississippi.

Alexis Miles: Is your work being impacted by some of the current political movements?

Curtis Ogden: Absolutely. What's been happening to different federal agencies, the freezing of aid, the pulling back of aid, was directly felt by, uh, some producers, farmers, especially small scale, uh, a lot that is built around farmers. And, you know, there's been a, a growing interest in food systems and local food systems. A lot of that infrastructure was funded through various kinds of USDA grants and otherwise. So that pullback has been, yeah, pretty devastating for many, many people, and many, many institutions. And the question is, of course, what is the vision now for our food system? Where do they plan on investing that money? One can imagine. Our hope was that we would continue to see. As the work in Mississippi and our work in New England is about, is ensuring that small scale, medium scale farmers and fishers can make a living, not just scrape by. That they're understood to be valuable contributors to society and culture 

'cause if we don't eat, we don't live. And, increasingly adopting techniques that help to sequester carbon. So, in terms of tending to climate change or even reversing climate change. I mean, these people are real craftspeople, and we need more of them.

Alexis Miles: So, it's not just an idea, an abstract, it's real. And, it impacts people abilities to feed their families, to have food themselves. Is that correct?

Liz Broussard-Red: Yeah. Mississippi is, um, one of the poorest states in the nation and one of the most food insecure, and already there are not enough, uh, resources. You know, folks are, are severely, um, divested in, in terms of schools, in terms of food needs. So yes, I think this just makes the issues even worse. On the one hand, um, we were talking, um, having a conversation earlier and, and, you know, in other ways, um, unfortunately, I think Mississippians are also, kind of, accustomed to not having the kind of, uh, fed, state and federal resources that are needed. So, in some ways, you know, our, our, this doesn't change our work. Um, you know, at the center we're, we still have the same commitments that we did before, and we're still gonna fight for the resources that Mississippians deserve. Whereas I, I think there's a, been a big shock factor in, in some states and regions, in particular. I think, unfortunately, a lot of mississippians are kinda, this feels like business as usual.

Alexis Miles: And New England, is it a similar situation?

Curtis Ogden: It is, yeah. I mean, there's so much that depends on federal funding, uh, coming through to support farmers and you know, the infrastructure around them. So, you know, we are a, a richer region, so in some ways maybe the shocks are felt more, right? Uh, I'm not quite sure, but we, we are clear that the ripples will continue to come, and we don't know where the other axes are going to fall and what the plan is to fill in those, those gaps. There are time delays in systems, so who knows what's coming down the road. And we already knew that hunger was a problem in this country. And the idea is not just to feed people any old thing, because we don't just talk about rectifying hunger, but there is such a thing as nutrition equity in terms of who gets food that's not just caloric, but that's nutritious, that, you know, gets to all different parts of our bodies and gets us the minerals, the vitamins we need, the nutrients.

Sam Fuqua: So, we mentioned that we spoke with Alison Cohen and uh, they outlined a lot of the structural issues, but just to drill down into one structural problem, you know, when I think of what you've just been talking about, both of you, I just want fresh produce raised by the black farmers of Mississippi or any farmers of Mississippi to be in the school cafeterias in Jackson, or fresh seafood caught by the Vietnamese fishermen to be in the cafeterias in Biloxi, you know? And why can't that happen?

Liz Broussard-Red: Yeah, and it can happen. It can happen, and it has happened. There have been programs that have really supported that. The Mississippi Farm to School Network does some incredible work, trying to encourage those connections. Uh, what first brought me to Mississippi at the time I was serving with Food Corps, which is, um, in that role, it was really heavily trying to make those connections between farmers and schools. You know, um, schools have a very small budget to work with and purchasing food to feed a lot of children, and they do. Food service directors across the state do an amazing job at feeding children with the resources that they have, and to incorporate an extra hurdle of having fresh produce that's harvested from a farm that might not be chopped to the right specifications already, uh, or delivered in quite the right way that they're accustomed to collecting. They're just logistics in there that add, kind of, 

extra work, and in some cases, extra cost. You know, we also, uh, know that farmers don't make, uh, a lot of the money that is made off of food does not go to the farmer. Um, and with our local farmers, we're looking for outlets where they really can make money from what they, what they sell. And sometimes, uh, school districts without additional resources have a hard time paying the value of what, um, fresh produce is really worth. And there have been some incredible grant programs that have helped fill in the gap. States, um, across the country are investing in, uh, in farmers to make local food purchases, seeing that it pays off in the local economy, that those dollars will stay, uh, within a state's local economy. And there, there are so many benefits for children and families, um, that can come from that, but it require, it requires, uh, uh, policies and, and extra funding in some cases to make that happen.

Alexis Miles: Could you say more about this? Is there a disparity in, let's say food and nutrition outcomes based on race and economics?

Curtis Ogden: Just pure and simple. Yes. I mean, some of that may be changing a little bit in terms of, um, demographic shifts, but when, uh, Food Solutions New England, our network got started about 14 years ago, uh, we were looking not just at ensuring that there was more local, regionally produced food, but that everybody could have access to it, that everybody could afford it. And, um, we dis, disaggregated the poverty rates by state, by race, and it was pretty predictable that if you were a person of color, black, indigenous, the rates were going to be higher. In a place like New England, we have still more white folk than people of color. And so, in aggregate you would see more white people in poverty. But again, when you break it down proportionally, you would see that there, the suggestion is both race and class are pretty predictive of poverty and other negative outcomes from systems. So, uh, hunger, nutrition inequities, and the like.

Alexis Miles: Some people say that that's because some people work hard and, to ensure that their families are fed, and some people don't. So, these inequities are a result of lack of merit. That we live in a system that's based on meritocracy, and that if you don't have food, if you don't have access to nutritious food, it's your own fault because you didn't work hard, you didn't do the right things to ensure you had the money to get it. Is that true or not?

Curtis Ogden: I mean, there of course are differences between individuals. Some work harder than others, but it's a preposterous statement to say that systems don't have anything to do with this. And, you know, Liz and her colleagues are, are still confronting the legacy of plantation economy, plantation economics. You want to talk about who worked hard on plantations? And what did they get? You wanna still talk about who works hard, you know, working class Americans, and what do they get? You don't look at the systems that, kind of, collude to keep them down. Public housing not available. You're trying to work three different jobs. You have to commute from far away. Is there public transportation? To say nothing of the traumas and the psychology that gets passed down generation to generation that some of people also dismiss. Right? But they're not really, yeah, I, I just have to say either they, they can't or they don't want to think in terms of systems. And of course, individual effort matters. So, we don't want to get into an either/or. And, there are extraordinary stories of people overcoming incredible, incredible circumstances. But is that what it should require? And is that what it, which should require of certain people who look a certain way or are of a certain socioeconomic standing? I mean, basically we're saying yes right now, in this country.

Alexis Miles: And it does seem that nutritious food should be a human right, a universal human right.

Liz Broussard-Red: Yes, absolutely.

Alexis Miles: What do you think people need to really understand about food justice, food equity? One of the things that people can begin to consider.

Curtis Ogden: I'll repeat some of the things I hear coming outta my mouth at times with people, which is, it would really be helpful if more people understood that food is a system. Doesn't just show up at the grocery store or on your plate in a restaurant. That there's a whole food web, food chain that gets there, and it all has to work. And, it may work, but it may not work treating people's human dignity along the way, and treating the, the Earth in such a way that it's gonna continue to generate what we need. So, I would start there that food is a system and, uh, it's not just a conveyor belt. It's built on humans. And, uh, we gotta ask fundamental questions about their treatment and how we're treating the planet if we have, uh, an interest in our long-term viability as a species.

Liz Broussard-Red: Yeah, I was also thinking about, um, food as medicine. Um, Mississippi was home to one of the, um, first community health centers, um, in the country. And, during the sixties when there were sick people going to hospitals, there were doctors that, that had the wherewithal to think about, well, what do these, what do these folks need to get healthy? And, um, in many cases it was that they were malnourished, that they didn't have access to the food that they needed, and that still resonates today. Um, a lot of sickness, um, results from not having access to quality, culturally appropriate foods. And so, just the connection between what we eat, and where that food comes from, and our bodies, I think, is an important connection to make food as medicine.

Curtis Ogden: Another thing I would just add is just to have, help everybody understand that you don't have to work in the sys, in, in the system, the food system. As an eater, you, you, you are a part of the system, and you, sort of, vote for the kind of system you want with the choices you make about who you purchase from, uh, what you purchase. Of course, some of us have more choice than others or have to work less hard, uh, to expand our choices. That was one thing I was gonna say. And the other is just our food systems are full of power. And, uh, it gets very eyeopening when you ask yourself, so where is the power? Where is the money in our food system? So eyeopening for me to go to Mississippi and learn, you know, that the plantation economy has morphed and essentially you have now grocery chains that are owned by a lot of those people. It's, sort of, changed and what used to be the, uh, rations given out at the general store, uh, the plantation has now turned into like food stamps and what you're allowed to buy at a grocery store. And, there are too few of those with too few nutritious choices. And, that's increasingly the case in a lot of places in our country, uh, that are impoverished in rural America and, and urban America. So history, Yeah, we're, we're part of that flow. And those dynamics, many of them are still with us.

Sam Fuqua: Liz Broussard-Red and Curtis Ogden. We appreciate your time today and we really appreciate your work. Thank you. Curtis Ogden is a senior associate with the Interaction Institute for Social Change, and the lead facilitator for Food Solutions New England. Liz Broussard-Red is a co-steward of the Mississippi Center for Food Systems. We spoke with them at the 2025 White Privilege Conference.

Thanks for listening to Well, That Went Sideways! We produce new episodes twice a month. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts and on our website, sidewayspod.org. Our site has information on our guests, interview transcripts, and links to more conflict resolution resources. And, we encourage you to sign up for our newsletter. That's at sidewayspod.org. Our production team is Mary Zinn, Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles, Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua. Our theme music is by Mike Stewart. We produce these programs in Colorado on the traditional lands of the Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations. To learn more about the importance of land acknowledgement, visit our website sidewayspod.org. And this podcast is a partnership with The Conflict Center, a Denver-based nonprofit that provides practical skills and training for addressing everyday conflicts. Find out more at conflictcenter.org.