Antonio Williams: If I can say it, but then my white counterpart can't say it, then the word never lost its power, right? So therefore, is it really a term of endearment? So that's, you know, engaging that conversation and really getting people to understand that there are people that died and that was the last word they heard when they died.

Sam Fuqua: That's Antonio Williams, and this is Well, That Went Sideways! A podcast that serves as a resource to help people have healthy, respectful communication. We present a diversity of ideas, tools, and techniques to help you transform conflict in relationships of all kinds. In this episode, we talk with Antonio Williams about the power of the N word. He is the founder and president of Leaders at Work Consulting. Antonio Williams has worked in education for over 25 years as a teacher, a department chair, and a senior administrator. We spoke with him at the 2024 White Privilege Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And please note that the N word is used several times in this conversation.

I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of the program with Alexis Miles. Hi, Alexis.

Alexis Miles: Hi, Sam.

Sam Fuqua: Great to be here at the 2024 White Privilege Conference in Tulsa with Antonio Williams. Hello, welcome.

Antonio Williams: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Sam Fuqua: Great to have you with us.

Alexis Miles: So Antonio, let's just jump right in here. You gave a talk about the power of the N word. So, could you tell us how you developed this talk?

Antonio Williams: I've been in education for at least 30 years, and I would say for the last 16, 17, 18 years, for whatever reason, there's always been some incident around the N word within the school, within a school. And what I decided to do, and a lot of things happened in terms of like, the students would say, well, I didn't know I could say that, I didn't know the history. I was like, really? Is this what we're saying? But I didn't necessarily believe it, but how can you argue with someone when they said "I didn't know," right? You cannot prove that, unless you yourself had taught them that, right? So, what I decided to do was create this presentation. And, it started small when I was doing it in classes like specifically around English classes and then some history classes and then it evolved where I started doing it for entire high schools, entire middle schools. Did it on a university, university level, um, for faculty, staff, so it, it kind of grew from that.

But the idea here is that I wanted to make sure that people understood the history and the power of the word. A lot of people don't know the history of it. Um, so that, you know, I show, give them a variety of different examples and talk about how it's very difficult to find an American classic, um, that does not have the word in it. So, you talk about those things and then engage in the conversation, do you teach about this word prior to engaging in that book, right? And, a lot of times that doesn't happen. So now, people that look like me or identify as me, as a black man, that they're sitting in a room uncomfortable, right? So now, they're uncomfortable, now you're taking away from their ability to learn. Because now they have to address and be conscious of every time the word is being used and deal with their emotions that are 

happening because you chose not to deal with it. Right? So, those, all of those things sort of came into my mind. That's sort of like why I decided, decided to do it.

Alexis Miles: And, could you say more about how the word was being used? Is this in a school setting and students are using it and/or it's also in the literature of the history books?

Antonio Williams: Yes. So, you have both, right? So, you have, you know, students that say it to each other, you know, African American or black students that may say it to one another. You have other students that don't identify as black that actually say it to blacks. So, that's one aspect. Um, and then you have students that are of color that say it as well, right? So, sort of addressing that, that part of it. Um, and really getting them to understand the ideology behind that and the history and why it should not be used, regardless of how you're spelling it. Um, regardless of if you feel like it is a term of endearment, because the reality is that if I can say it, but then my white counterpart can't say it, then the word never lost its power, right? So therefore, is it really a term of endearment? So that's, you know, engage in that conversation and really getting people to understand that there are people that died and that was the last word they heard when they died. So, kind of talk about it from that end.

Um, from the literature perspective, again, the, the infamous, you know, Huck Finn, where, you know, the word was used 219 times within the book, um, and really, you know, addressing that con, that conversation or having that conversation around the word and the history and the power of it. And many times, teachers don't talk about that. And, and that's a problem, right? So, I am a black parent, right? And my child comes home and this word is here and it's not been addressed and not been talked about in some way. I'm a little annoyed. Now, I have to go back and kind of talk about it even more. But, again, as a black parent, you do talk about the word, right? Because for black parents, we know that it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when my child is going to be called that word, because it's going to happen.

Sam Fuqua: What is the history of the word? I mean, I think there's a lot of people listening who, you know, understand it as a derogatory term, but don't really know the origin.

Antonio Williams: So the word, it goes back to, like, even in Europe, there's documentation where in 1587 that the word was actually being used. And it was actually more, it comes from the Latin term niger, right? So, for black. So, it was really used as a way to describe a set of people. Right? Because we were black. So, they used that word to describe us. It wasn't until, I would say, the 1800s until, um, abolitionists in, in the South really was making headway. And then the term became, developed power because they wanted to ensure that they squashed or killed any slave revolt or possibility of revolts. So, because now it becomes a powerful word, um, to kind of des, dehumanize people, right? So, that was the idea behind it so that they empower themselves, um, in a way that blacks are constantly looking at themselves in a, in a derogatory way, right? So, there's this mental imprisonment that happens, right? So, it's not just the physical and emotional imprisonment of slavery, it's the mental component as well. And that's a huge part because now that mental emotional gets passed off from generation to generation, right? So now there, we all, you know, our parents told us stories, right? Tell us stories about their childhood, about how they grew up. Those same stories passed down from generation to generation and impacts how we raise each other. Right? So those, all of those things kind of come into play.

Alexis Miles: So, it sounds like you're saying the use of that word objectifies a human being. And that human and other people looking at that human start treating them as if they are less than human because of the word. Because they become all of a sudden objectified.

Antonio Williams: It's the ultimate insult. And that insult took so many different forms. You know, whether it's a white person, right? They would say, I remember growing up with hip hop, and if there was a white person that liked hip hop, they would be called a wigger. So, the white version of that. Or, they would say, excuse my language, they would say sand niggers, right, to, something along that line. So, there's the ultimate insult that people use that word for, and it's, and it's so powerful in terms of the reaction that you will always get. It doesn't matter, like, who it is. There's a reaction that we all have physically. You know, we are a little uncomfortable. We feel it in our chest. Regardless of how you identify, like, there's a reaction that you have. And that there's really no other word that actually is able to do that, other than that particular word. The word itself, believe it or not, in the 1800s, um, 1700s, yeah I would say 1800s, where slaves actually used that to describe each other, right, because it was, some slave owners would call other slaves that particular word because they looked at them as rebellious as they fought the system. So, they talked about them and from that perspective and would call them that, so what ended up happening is that slaves would call themselves that because of the fact that it was almost like an honor. Like, you're fighting the system, you're bucking the system and you're rebelling, so now it's a positive thing because I'm, now I'm calling you that from a positive perspective. So, that's one.

I'm not going to put it on here. Um, hip hop person, right? I grew up with hip hop. And so, I'm not going to put it on hip hop. Hip hop gives it media. Our social media is really the issue and not necessarily just hip hop. Um, but social media, because when you think about it, Red Fox, Archie Bunker, we're seeing it in the 70s on TV, right? And it was okay. No one had an issue with it. If even today, if you think about it, you know, there are shows where you may hear that word on TV. You may hear someone say that, but you won't hear any other slur without repercussions. The question becomes, why is it okay for this particular word to be used, and without necessarily having repercussions, and it's not okay for these other words to be used. Uh, so there's, there's an imbalance there. What is that, what really is that about? And when you think about the word itself, the word has not necessarily evolved, right? There are now substitutes that are happening, right? So, when you think about, like, you would watch, you know, CNN, Fox, or whatever the case is, or any news, news station, and the people would say thug, right? When you think about the word thug, for them it was equivalent, because you start thinking about what is, when you envision a thug, it's the same envision that you have when you hear the word nigger, right? So, it's the same ideology, the same concept. Or now, because people know they can't say that word because it's suicide, professional suicide, so they're not going to say it, so they substitute it. Or substitute it with DEI. They substitute it with CRT. There are ways that they're substituting it in place of that, right, because it's the same mindset and the same thing.

Alexis Miles: I think people like Ron DeSantis, for example, would argue with you, no, I'm not substituting anything. No, I say what I want to say. And how would you respond to someone like that?

Antonio Williams: So, you want the Brooklyn version or the correct version? So, there are really two versions. So, the correct version, I shouldn't say correct, but the version that I'm going to share, I would say, one, we knew this is who he was. He showed that before he was elected and he was still elected, right? So that's, that's one, it was, it was clear. For me, he, I already identified him as a racist. So, I'm not necessarily surprised by anything that he says and everything and anything that he's done during, during his office. Because he's displayed it the entire time, right? So you, whether you want to get rid of all of DEI that's at 

University of Florida or any other Florida school, you want to look at the African American history class or the AP African American history course and say it's not okay. Like, I'm sorry, since when does a politician, you're not even an educator. You don't have that background. So, how are you actually going to handle that and, or critique it?

Alexis Miles: What would you like to see happen regarding the use of that word?

Antonio Williams: A couple of things. One, I would love for, you know, us as a race where we don't use it, right? 'Cause it, it happens. It's, it's used, you know, you'd mentioned hip hop and it's used in hip hop. You know, I went to KRS-One concert last Sunday and, loved it, he was great, he's always, he's on top, my top five all time. And, I listened to his lyrics, 'cause he's just a great lyricist, and he never said the N word, whatsoever. Right? And it's, and it's amazing to me, but now, the N word is just in every hip hop record. And why is that? Right? Because again, it sells, it sells. Right? Cardi B said that she did a song and I don't remember the name of the song, which was not a, you know, it wasn't derogatory in any particular way. It wasn't cursing. It wasn't sexual, hypersexual, and it didn't sell. And then she ended up doing WAP with Megan Thee Stallion and everyone had a, had a fit. And she said, “Well, guess what? When I did a good song or a clean song, you didn't buy it. But when I did this song, you bought it.”

So, at some point, like, it's about money. So, someone, someone is encouraging the behavior and the mindset to say, okay, this is, this is, needs to continue. But the problem that is ultimately happening is that they are, and I said, said this to my daughter years ago, which is, you have children that are listening to this and this is their model, and they have no other model around them, and the impact and systemic oppression from that just continues to build. So, at some point we have to address that and have to engage in a conversation to eliminate that in some way. Again, I don't know how you can eliminate it other than just helping them evolve in terms of their lyrics, right, because again the freedom of speech is freedom of speech. But, at some point you have to take responsibility of, in terms of what you're saying and how you're saying it.

Sam Fuqua: In terms of the how you're saying it, what if an artist says, “I'm, I'm saying it in the way that one enslaved person said it to another enslaved person who was standing up against the, the enslaver?”

Antonio Williams: I would push, I would push back and say, you're an incredible lyricist. You're telling me that you can't find other ways to say that, right? You're a lyricist. That's what you do. You can find different ways to say something, right? And you think about Lauren Hill, she said something about defecating on the microphone. She could have said another word instead of defecating, but she showed her lyrical genius by saying that particular line, right? So, it behooves them to say, okay, I can write this, I can say this, but if I say this in a totally different way, it shows my ability to be a lyricist. So, there are things that you can do that doesn't take away from your ability to be an emcee. Right? It just enhances who you are and your, and your ability, right? And you actually have more respect because people would sit there like, wow, did he just say it that way? Or did she just say it that way? Did they just say it that way? No, there are ways to do that.

Alexis Miles: So, I want to be absolutely clear. What you're saying is the N word, nigger, hurts both black people and people who are not black.

Antonio Williams: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, clearly it hurts us very differently, but it does have an impact on everyone involved, right, without a question.

Alexis Miles: I work in a bookstore, and frequently I'm called to be the person to de-escalate tense situations. I was recently called because an older white man kept repeatedly saying, "nigger, nigger," and they asked me to come up. And he, he looked at me and said, "Your people say the word all the time. How come I can't say it? Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger." He said it about ten times in a row and felt he was totally justified in saying it. Then the people around who heard it, who were other white people, came up to me to apologize, you know, for that use of the word and to express that they felt concern for me hearing it, not realizing that it also hurt them to hear that word.

Antonio Williams: And, and, it's fun because we're having this conversation and in that scenario and a lot of those scenarios, the question that I have, is it really the power of the word or is it really, are we talking about who has the authority to say the word? Right? Because he said it in terms of like, well, you people say it all the time and he's mad that he could not say the word. So, that becomes, that goes back to privilege and power, right? So, that's a very different conversation, um, in terms of, you know, being able to say that. Like, I can't say it, why can't I say it when you can say it? Right? There's a level of power and privilege that, you know, he's thinking from, that he's bothered by. Like, I cannot say it, that's not right. I've always been able to say whatever I wanted to say. That's ultimately the question. Like, who has the authority to say it?

Sam Fuqua: So, I have said something when another white person used that term in my presence. Said, you know, that's derogatory, racist word, and I'm not comfortable with it. But, I have not said anything when I've heard an African American person use it in my presence because I didn't feel like it was my place to say anything.

Antonio Williams: You know, and, and you're not the only one. Um, there are many people that feel that way. Um, you know, as an educator, there are many, my white colleagues that are educators that, you know, are concerned or feel, are not comfortable addressing it. But the reality is that you can say something as simple as like, “I'm not okay with this word.” “I'm not okay with you saying it in front of me.” Like, “It's not okay, and it's not okay because somebody else might be upset by you saying it,” right? A simple, “I am not okay,” can stop it. And it will say so much to everyone else around that you heard it and you wanted to address it. The bigger issue is the word being said and no one says anything about it, right? Because now it sends a message to every other student that, oh, maybe it is okay. Um, maybe you feel, maybe not, and I'm not saying that you feel that way, but maybe you feel like it's okay that it's being said, right? When deep down you're not okay with it, right? And being able to articulate it is important and it really doesn't matter who says it. It's just, you don't have to go into this whole dissertation about it, but just something as simple as, “You know what, man? I'm, I'm not okay with you saying that.”

Sam Fuqua: And my silence, nobody knows the reason for that, really.

Antonio Williams: When there's silence, that's, and I'm not saying that you're doing that, but people interpret that as you're co-signing it, right? And that's the idea.

Sam Fuqua: We always ask our guests, picking up on the name of the show, to tell us about a time when something went sideways for you. What happened, what you learned, how you responded, what you learned from it?

Antonio Williams: My first year as a senior administrator, I had the luxury of having my daughter in the same school. And in her ninth grade year, you know, she graduated, she graduated 3.9. She's a beautiful young woman, um, who doesn't do anything wrong. Like, her integrity is out of the roof. Better person than I ever will be. And, uh, her mother and I try to give her a drink every now and then, and she's like, no, I'm not drinking. And I'm like, what have we done? But, nevertheless, um, you know, our family's Caribbean, you know, her mother's from New Orleans, so it is in our genes to drink alcohol. So, but, clearly it's not, uh, in our child, in our daughter's gene, but, uh, but I'd say that to give you background of who she is and just her integrity and, and, um, and heart that she has. So, in her ninth grade year, there was a young man in her math class that called her the N word. And as a senior administrator, your responsibility, just like any other educator and adult in the school, is to take care of every child. My, I'm having lunch. My daughter comes downstairs to tell me, "Dad, um, I need something to tell you." And I said, "Okay." And she said, she tells me what happened and then tells me that the black kids who I have great relationships with are taking it upon themselves because they attacked Mr. Williams’ daughter, and they're coming downstairs to kick his behind. So, at that point, I have to protect the boy that called my daughter a nigger.

And, I remember having, I took him to my office and left him there and then eventually was able to get another administrator to remove him from my office and continue that process. And, it became a bigger issue where my relationship actually with another senior administrator who's actually no longer there, our relationship will never recover because of things that she said and that I had to respond to. As one, for example, that her mother and I did not prepare her to be called the N word. And I had to remind her that as a black man, a black family, we have to prepare our child for that because it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And that, I had a relationship with the child's family that called her the N word, um, taught his sister, and great relationship with his sister. And, she said to the, the other administrator said to me that I didn't take a moment to believe the other kid or to believe the story the kid wanted, was saying. And, I looked at her and said, one, you clearly don't know who my child is because my child doesn't lie. That's not who, even if she was getting in trouble, she's not going to lie. She's going to tell me.

But then I also said to her, I said, "You know, you have two daughters, God forbid, they came home and said a man molested her, molested them or raped them. Are you questioning anything that your daughters are going to say to you at that moment in time? Or are you going to believe it? So, why would you ask me to question what my daughter says to me?" So, we kept going back and forth. So, I say all that to say, what I learned from that, is that I'm a father first, and I will always be a father. And that, I should have tried my best to find someone else to address the situation, or move the child, so I can focus totally on my child. I think that's probably what I learned from it, but I don't regret what I did. But if I could have a split second to do it again, maybe I would have been able to find someone, um, I just thought there were too many kids coming down to kick this kid's behind, that I can't stop all of them, but I can remove him.

Alexis Miles: I'd like to back up for a second to make sure I understood something you said. Did you say with your daughter, you had or had not had conversations with her to, to prepare her for being called the N word?

Antonio Williams: Oh, I definitely had multiple conversations with her about that. I think what, what really did it for her was that it was said by someone that she thought was a friend.

Alexis Miles: I see. I see.

Antonio Williams: So, that's really what it boiled down to.

Alexis Miles: Earlier you said that that's the one word where there are no repercussions for saying it. Um, other words are treated differently. I believe I got that right.

Antonio Williams: Hm-mmm. Yes.

Alexis Miles: Why do you think that is?

Antonio Williams: Honestly, because you have, that word focuses on one specific race. Any slur against our Jewish community, our LGBTQ community, you have individuals that are in power, that can be, that are impacted and have the power and persuasion and influence to make sure that something happens, right? So, I think that's a huge part of it, um, that there is power and control over, over things that some of us we don't, don't have. So, I think ultimately that's what it boils down to.

Alexis Miles: I'm thinking about some of my friends, personal friends, long term friends, who use that word. And I have been uncomfortable with them using it, but I rationalize not saying anything, thinking, well, they hold the word differently than I hold it. I think, though, after this conversation, I'm going to start saying, "I'm uncomfortable when you use that word." Yeah. Because I, for me, it has not been decolonized, the word. It still induces trauma. And until it can be legitimately reclaimed, I think I'm just going to start speaking up and speaking out.

Antonio Williams: I mean, and the unfortunate piece is that it continues to be used in a derogatory manner. It is continued to be used in a way that creates, uh, feelings of terror. Right? Right? It's a form of terrorism. You know, the, we, I had an opportunity to visit Black Wall Street. And, I was able to speak with one of the descendants, who owns, happens to owns a store. And, he said just two weeks ago, someone actually spray painted it on his window. So, I don't know if we're ever going to be in a place where that word doesn't have power. Right? Because there are so many people that are still using it in the way that it was, they intended to use it when it was created.

Alexis Miles: And, some of my white friends talk about just hearing the word constantly at the dinner table as they were growing up. Even now, hearing the word.

Antonio Williams: And that's not long ago, right? So, when you think about it, like, that's not long ago. So, I don't know. Um, I don't have an answer for it. I mean, it's, it's sad, uh, but I really don't have an answer for it. Or like, even for, you know, our black community, like it's, I remember, and I'm, I'm laughing because it's like you, I have friends that say it. And, I did a presentation, a presentation on the N word at Fairleigh Dickinson University, actually earlier this year. And, I put it on social media that I was doing it. And one of my friends, um, who, you know, we've been friends since 14, 15 years old. So, he's my friend, uh, he's my brother. So, he, he saw it and you know, he responded accordingly, but he said the word. He said the word 

when we initially started having the conversation. You're like, I mean, I laugh because it was like, it was actually funny, but it was just like, it just reinforced the idea, like, I don't know if this word is ever going to, going to go away. Even though he knew, he knows that I'm doing a presentation on the history and the power and agreed that I need to do this, it has to be done, but nevertheless, he still used it.

Alexis Miles: And I guess some people would argue, well, I'm just talking like the people around me talk.

Antonio Williams: So, then my question would be, do you use any other slur or hateful speech? Why do you use this one?

Alexis Miles: Is there anything else that you think it's important to share right now related to that word?

Antonio Williams: I think one is, for those that don't identify like me, or a black person, to find the courage to say, it's not okay to say it, right? And, to do their own research about the history of it and the power of it. For those of us that identified like myself, do your research and understand why the word would never lose power and that somehow, some way there are our own ancestors within this country that were terrorized by that word and survived so that we could survive and so we could be here, but would they be okay with you saying the word knowing everything that, their experience? Everything that was done to them around that particular word. Would they be okay with you saying it?

Sam Fuqua: Antonio Williams, thank you so much.

Antonio Williams: Thank you. Thank you both. Appreciate it.

Sam Fuqua: Antonio Williams is the founder and president of Leaders at Work Consulting. He's worked in education for over 25 years as a teacher, department chair, and senior administrator. We spoke with him at the 2024 White Privilege Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Thanks for listening to Well, That Went Sideways! We produce new episodes twice a month. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts, and on our website, sidewayspod.org. We also have information on our guests, interview transcripts, and links to more conflict resolution resources. That's sidewayspod.org. Our production team is Mary Zinn, Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles, Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua. Our theme music is by Mike Stewart. We produce these programs in Colorado, on the traditional lands of the Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations. To learn more about the importance of land acknowledgement, visit our website, sidewayspod.org. And this podcast is a partnership with The Conflict Center, a Denver-based nonprofit that provides practical skills and training for addressing everyday conflicts. Find out more at conflictcenter.org.