Cynthia Pesantez: And so this is our way of subversively leveraging these one time event budgets for real sustained change. I would rather work dirt cheap for sustained community momentum for justice than make a whole lot of money and not make any difference at all.
 

Sam Fuqua: That's Cynthia Pesantez, and this is Well, That Went Sideways! A podcast that serves as a resource to help people have healthy, respectful communication. We present a diversity of ideas, tools, and techniques to help you transform conflict in relationships of all kinds. I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of the program with Alexis Miles. Hello, Alexis.

Alexis Miles: Hi, Sam.
 

Sam Fuqua: We are so pleased to be joined by Cynthia Pesantez here at the 2024 White Privilege Conference in Tulsa. Welcome.
 

Cynthia Pesantez: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.
 

Sam Fuqua: I want to ask you about the name of your organization. Comadre literally means a godmother, right?

Cynthia Pesantez: Comadre is actually your child's godmother.
 

Sam Fuqua: Child's godmother.
 

Cynthia Pesantez: Yes. And so, the comadre relationship is an incredibly special relationship. Um, my family's from the Dominican Republic and, uh, in the Dominican Republic and across Latin America, you'll hear women referring to each other as comadre. And this is a chosen family relationship, and it's a relationship that is based in shared values and shared dreams. And so, we chose this name of the Comadre Speakers Collaborative, um, as a way to indicate that when we are working with our hosts, because what we do is develop these incredible speaker events that drive community momentum towards justice, we want our hosts to know that we are there with them in these shared values of justice.

Sam Fuqua: Say more about that, because when I hear speakers bureau, I think, well, I, I have a choice of speaker. They're paid a fee. People come and hear the talk, hopefully they learn something and, or have an energetic response, and then, then we're done. So, uh, this is a different kind of Speakers Bureau, right?

Cynthia Pesantez: Very much so, yes. Very much so. So, um, in order to get to what we are, I should tell you where we came from. In the summer of, uh, or I guess spring of 2020, when George Floyd was murdered, um, I was working with Debbie Irving, who wrote the book Waking Up White, and I was booking her speaker events. She wasn't part of a speaker's bureau, it was just she and I working together, and people were calling me around the time, soon after his murder, and I was fielding so many calls from well meaning white people or people at predominantly white institutions that were asking for Debbie to come immediately and speak. Can she come next week? And of course, it was COVID times, but can she, you know, can she come to a Zoom next week? I mean, it's just Zoom, right? We're not traveling, so it should be easy for her to just pop on and do it. And, what I was thinking about was in my own grief and my own racial trauma, uh, and my own pandemic anxiety, um, I was thinking about how hard it is to invest the emotional energy as a woman of color into creating these events that would be forgotten the moment Debbie turned off the mic, until the next hashtag.

And so, this cycle of death and guilt and assuagement and forgetting and then death again was too much for my soul. I just, I told Debbie, I refuse to do this anymore. I just can't. And Debbie being fantastic said, then let's find another way to do the work. And so, we developed together this incredible process of leading people through what does it take to make this work not just impactful, but sustained and sustainable, right? So, we came up with an entire process of leading people through, um, community buy-in building, right? Skill building within each organization, getting, uh, you know, a space ready, whether it's a virtual or an in-person space, getting it ready, um, for a speaker to come in and really make an impact, and then have a plan for what happens afterwards. So, knowing that we weren't going to be able to change corporate budgets, right, we were always going to get calls for a one-time speaker event. We said, how can we subversively leverage these speaker events to create some sustained community momentum? And that's what we've done.
 

Alexis Miles: Can you say more about what that looks like. If I came to you saying, "Hey, Cynthia, we want to bring Debbie Irving in to speak." What would those components that you just listed, what would that look like?

Cynthia Pesantez: Absolutely. So, if someone came to me and said, "Hey, we want Debbie Irving to come speak," the very first question that I ask myself is, are we sure it's Debbie Irving who's the right person for this community? Right? And, that's the reason we shifted from just me and Debbie together into a collaborative of multiple speakers. So, we have, you know, a wide range of speakers from lots of racial identities whose own stories might be exactly, right, the fit for this particular community and exactly what this community needs to learn. So, as I'm working with someone who's, when I'm doing an intake, I'm asking about what the process have been, has been up until now. Is this the first conversation we're having about race? Or have you been having an ongoing conversation about race? What have been your setbacks before? What are your hopes and dreams and goals when you think about not just this event, but in five years, where does your organization want to be when it comes to inclusion? So, we're asking all of these questions as part of our intake.

So, it's not just what day and time do you need and what's your budget? It's, tell me about your hopes and dreams. Tell me, right, what have been your struggles here, and where do you feel you need to be supported? After that happens, then we go into strategizing for the community, right? What's going to work for your community? You know your community best. So, I'm going to build some skills in you. But I can't tell you exactly what to do because I don't know your community, right? You know your community. So, I empower the person who's doing the planning to use what they know about their community, break through silos, build coalition together in order to build some, uh, support for this event. So, when a speaker comes in, they're not just showing up to a silent room full of people with their arms crossed, but rather there's a mix of resistors and champions who are ready to engage in a way that's productive.

Sam Fuqua: So, you're asking a lot more of the organization or the people who may have contacted you just to say, we want someone to come and speak.

 

Cynthia Pesantez: Yes, this is true. I am asking a lot more, but I'm giving so much more too, right? I have recognized that if I were to say, you know, what you really need is a consulting relationship. What you really need is two years of me coming in and helping you, right, build capacity within your organization, not a whole lot of people are ready for that kind of a, not a whole lot of organizations, I should say, are ready for that conversation, even if the people within those organizations are ready for it. And so, this is our way of subversively leveraging these one-time event budgets for real sustained change. I would rather work dirt cheap for sustained community momentum for justice than make a whole lot of money and not make any difference at all.

Alexis Miles: I'm really impressed. So, what outcomes have you seen so far?

Cynthia Pesantez: What I'm seeing, so luckily we work across sectors, we work in faith communities, we work in corporate, we work in higher ed, in K-12s, right? We're across the board. One thing that I see is people come to me who are usually the sole person of color in the space and they are tasked as the DEI director or de facto DEI person like I was when I was coming up, and they feel totally alone and ready to burn out. And, what I am doing is not just building the skills in them but being a support system and teaching them how to build the support around themselves. So, the kinds of outcomes that I've seen can vary from at a very micro level, right? We're having this one person who was all by themselves, I don't know if you know that DEI directors tend to stay in jobs for three to five years and that's it. After five years, they burn out and they leave and then somebody new comes in and all the institutional knowledge is lost. And, what we try to do is support people so that they can stay in there longer and really make a difference. So, at a micro level, having people feel supported and not alone in doing this DEI work is already a win for me, right? At a macro level, we're talking about policy changes. Right? We're talking about organizations realizing that they could be more equitable in their hiring practices, right, and so they'll make changes to their hiring practices. They'll make changes to the structures of their meetings, for example, to make sure that they're more inclusive in the meeting structures. Uh, and things like that make sustained, right, we're talking about sustained and sustainable change, and not just flash in the pan, not just one big change that people are going to rebel against and there's no opportunities for like a dialogue or real growth and sustained growth.

Alexis Miles: Well, I like that because it seems to be a paradigm shift. Because when I think, as Sam said earlier, when I think about the kind of service that most companies provide that are similar to yours, it is a one time thing. And, that is how most of the world, at least most of the people in the U. S., think about it, as this one time event. And, I don't think people think any further. Sometimes, I think people believe that one conversation is all it takes. But what you're saying is it's deeper than that. You have to build something into the structure that's sustainable over time.

Cynthia Pesantez: Absolutely. The thing is, I think our structures are so invisible. What I mean is, you know, the culture that we are sort of steeped in, right, growing up and being in this country especially, shows us values and habits that maintain the status quo. I think this is the case, right? Whatever your sort of society is, the status quo is maintained not just through, say, laws and edicts, but also through the ways in which people are socialized to maintain that status quo, right? So if, for example, one thing that I think about a lot in my work is the prioritizing of white comfort, right, over, say, the safety of people of color, as an example. Um, and so, part of our culture is that prioritization is maintained via things like the ways in which white people can respond with white fragility, right, when their comfort is, um, is threatened. And, it also is maintained in the ways that people of color are taught to prioritize white comfort. I was just talking about

this, uh, with the new movie that's coming out, or has just come out, The Society of the Magical Negro, right? That's the whole point of the movie is that we are socialized to, um, prioritize white comfort. And so, because we have this socialization, the laws have been there as well, right? But, all you really need is to get people to believe that this is the right way to act. And so, they'll act that way and the status quo is maintained. I would like to see a shifting of status quos and that means really examining, right, what, how it is that we individually contribute to, uh, to the way that things are now and how we can shift that.

Alexis Miles: Well, that seems like a big, important work that applies not only here, but to many, many things, like naming something that's invisible, that we don't even see. It's like a fish in water. No experience of the water whatsoever.

Sam Fuqua: So, what kind of reactions do you get when someone comes to you, perhaps, with that approach of, well, we're going to bring in a speaker and we'll have done something, and then they find out, well, actually we're going to be with you in serious work?

Cynthia Pesantez: Yeah, it's a mixed bag. I will tell you, it's a mixed bag. A lot of the time people are relieved that they're not going to be doing this alone. I think that people sort of expect like, okay, we're going to check this box, that's going to be the end of it. And then, when I show them all that we have to offer and everything that they themselves can be empowered to do, they feel the sense of relief, like I'm not really powerless here, am I? I thought that I was, but I'm not. Um, sometimes, you know, I offer everything and people are like, well, really all I want is that speaker on this day. That's all I need. In which case, we just don't work with organizations, um, like that. We say, it doesn't feel like you're ready for what we have to offer. You know, feel free to go to Redacted Speakers Bureau and you know, find someone there. 'Cause that's not, we don't just send one in dones. We think they do more harm than good.

Alexis Miles: Can you describe a success you had that you're really proud of?

Cynthia Pesantez: I have an event coming up, and it has been a long time coming. And this is a faith community. We, we have a sliding scale in the way that we charge. So, faith communities pay very little, um, compared to, say, large corporations. And uh, so this is not like a big money project, but this is, one person came to me saying that they wanted to have one of our speakers come in and speak, and luckily they did it months in advance. They're like, we have this April event, we'd love for the speaker to come in, and I started working with this one person and said, who are your stakeholders, right? Who are your assets? Who's around you who can help you with this? It shouldn't have to just be you alone. And so, this person pulls together a group of people, we have another meeting, and now there's like seven people at this meeting and we get together and everybody has their own skill set and I'm watching in real time as this group of people goes, well, I'm pretty good at marketing. I know how to do that stuff. Maybe I'll make the flyers. And somebody else is like, oh, you know what, if we want parents there, we probably need child care. I know about six high school kids who could babysit during the event. And someone else is like, well, you know what, I have connections with a caterer and it's a Black owned caterer. Wouldn't it be cool if we had a Black owned caterer who caters the event? And someone, right?

So, each person is bringing their own gift to this particular event and it's in service of this justice, you know, and this is what we want. We want people to start getting excited about what they can bring to the table instead of feeling daunted by, this is such a big thing. How can I possibly, right? So, there's seven people at the meeting and everybody's excited about the things, and I say, okay, well, let's meet up again in a month and see where you're at and what you need help with and everything. And in the meantime, I'm emailing back and forth with this person and she gets sick. So, you know, this is one of the things that I try to teach people with capacity building is you don't want to be the only person in charge because if something happens to you, what happens to the work? Then you've run yourself ragged and for what? This person gets sick. I go to the next meeting thinking, I don't know who's going to be there. There were twelve people at the next meeting. Even more people, right? And they were seamless. This person had learned to communicate effectively with this whole group of people. Everybody felt ownership over what was happening. So, it wasn't just, oh, well, this is this person's project. We're just helping out. No, everyone felt ownership. And so, as we get closer and closer to the date of the event, we're continuing to communicate with each other. They're building more and more community momentum. They keep emailing me saying, oh, we got another sponsor coming in. And there's another church that wants to be involved. And there's another community organization that's lending their support. And we just reached out to the local newspaper. They're going to do an article about it. And the local radio. And this, right? So, it keeps getting bigger and bigger because they're using these principles, right, of building community support around you, spreading around the ownership. And so, that means that my job, I'm doing my job really well. It's not, like I said, it's not a big money event, but it's not about, it cannot be about the money for me. This is my life's work because of moments like this, because I can see the way this whole group, they're all white people, this whole group of white people is wanting to be in community, learning how to unlearn their racism. It's really spectacular.
 

Sam Fuqua: And then what is the work after the event, and how do you engage?
 

Cynthia Pesantez: Oh, I love planning the work after the event, right? So, before the event even happens, we're talking about the feeling that comes up when a particular speaker is done with their talk, right? When the last word is said, what's the feeling that comes up? Is it, are people feeling inspired? Are they feeling agitated? Right? What's the feeling? And once we know what the feeling is, where do we want to channel it? So, one of the things that I like to suggest is let's do a 21-day racial equity habit building challenge, right? So, the 21-day challenge, um, which Debbie Irving helped put together is such a fantastic tool, and it can be used individually, or it can be used in big or small groups, however you want. So, I like to suggest, you know what, as soon as this person is done speaking, why don't you just announce, hey, guess what, in two days, we're gonna start the 21-day challenge. And this is what it's gonna look like. We would love for you to join us. Here's the QR code up on the screen. Scan the QR code and put in your email address so we can email you at the kickoff so that you're ready for it. Right? So, there's already a plan in place. It's so important to have a plan in place because here's what happens. People will come into a speaking event in one of a few ways: one way that they'll come in is already with their arms crossed, right, waiting for this person to be wrong, looking to pick apart the argument. That's one way people can come in. Another way that people can come in is hopeful, but wary. Right? And, I think speaking as a woman of color, this is where I tend to land is hopeful but wary, right? I'm in this community. I know the microaggressions that I have faced. I know the structural barriers that I have faced. And so, if you come to this event and you're bringing somebody who's gonna do some lip service, I'm hearing, I appreciate that you brought them in, but I'm wondering, okay, and? And so, that's another way that people can show up. And then there's the, you know, the sort of movable middle who are just sort of open and ready to hear what it is. And of course, we have people who are just completely hopeful and excited and they think this is what's going to fix everything. And so, if you don't have some container for the emotions that are going to come up at the end of this event, then what you're going to do is those people who were hopeful but wary, are going to become frustrated. Right? And, they're also going to have this "I knew it" moment. I knew it was just lip service. I knew they just wanted to check a box. Yeah, right. I knew this was all for nothing. I just wasted my time. Right? Then you have people who were the arm crossers who nothing happens afterward. And they're like, see, I told you it was BS. I knew this was nothing. And so, our resistance calcifies, right? Our hope, our cautious hope, turns into resistance. Because why should I support another event if I went to an event hopeful and it was just lip service? I'm not gonna do it, right? Our movable middle stays the same and our super hopeful people are like, yeah, we did a good job. We did a great job. You know, we got somebody here. Good for us. Um, and yet, and nothing changes. Right? No matter how you came into it, nothing changes if you don't change something. So, I always want a container for all of these emotions, right? If I am hopeful, but cautious, and as soon as the talk ends and I'm clapping and everything, and then they come on stage and they're like, we're going to start a 21-day challenge, you're going to do something after? This is not a one time thing? You mean there's more? Right? And then the arm crossers, right, they hear, we're going to do something after, it's in two days, get excited. Then they're like, wait a second, you didn't just do this to appease people. You really, you really mean this, right? You're really serious about this. You're going to keep going, huh? And then the very hopeful, excited people who said, you know, pat on the back, we did a good job because we got a speaker and they're like, oh wait, there's more. This talk wasn't enough because it's never enough. One talk is never enough. So, this is the opportunity to shift people into, away from the one and done and into sustained action. Look, we got a 21-day challenge coming. And guess what? In three weeks, we're all, some of us are going to get together and debrief from the 21-day challenge, we'd love to have you there. And then three weeks from then, hey, we're going to start a book club. You interested in a book club? Right? So, we advocate for little things often. And what that can look like is, you know, whether it's a 21-day challenge or a book club, another speaker event, sometimes people will get together and do like a letter writing campaign, or they'll do a service project or whatever it is. And it's an opportunity to say, to signal, this is not a one time thing. We're going to keep this going because we believe in it.
 

Sam Fuqua: I like little things often. The practical part of me says, that's doable.
 

Cynthia Pesantez: Absolutely. So often, this is a tip for free, but so often, you know, you'll be in a corporate space or you'll be in a space where there's a budget and you think, I got to do one big thing. Right? I've got this budget. I've got a day of the year. I'll do one big thing. How about if instead you take that budget and you do lots of little things, right? Instead of paying a speaker, and this is a speakers bureau telling you this, instead of paying a speaker for a one time event, what if you take a little bit of that money at a time and do lunch and learns? Buy people lunch. Buy people breakfast. Get them together. Build community, right? Build buy-in for the things that you really, that your community really cares about instead of worrying about just one big thing, spread it out and that'll do a couple of things, right, because when you have just the one event, what you find yourself doing is putting a lot of pressure on that one event, right? You, you put a lot of pressure on that one event. And then if there's resistance afterward, it's really discouraging. 'Cause you're like, we put all of our money and our effort into this one event.

 

But what if we do a series of a bunch of little things, right? Then we're relying on our internal knowledge, right, which is really empowering for people. We're also, um, we're also thinking about what our community really cares about, which could be multiple things, right? We talk about inclusion, and inclusion is so important. What does inclusion mean in your community? What if, you know, one month we did a lunch and learn on LGBTQ+ issues, and then two months later we did another lunch and learn on disability issues, and then another month we did a lunch and learn on environmental issues. Right? And so, instead of having one speaker who sort of sets the tone, right, for what this organization cares about, let it come from the people who are within the organization. They can tell you what they care about, and together we can learn.

Alexis Miles: When I hear you talk, it sounds like you're saying growth and transformation. Those things are incremental. That, it doesn't happen overnight, and that those baby steps add up to a giant leap.

Cynthia Pesantez: Yeah, I love that. That's really true. That's what we found is that when we expect the growth to be a big leap right at the beginning, we always come away disappointed and burnout happens. If we set the mindset to incremental, that's not to say that the work is not urgent, right? That's not to say that it's not important work and that we don't need big changes. We absolutely do. I'm just talking about strategy, right? From a strategic perspective, I want to do little things often instead of one big thing and not bring anybody along with me.
 

Alexis Miles: Thank you so much. I learned so much.
 

Cynthia Pesantez: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.
 

Sam Fuqua: Cynthia Pesantez is the founder of the Comadre Speakers Collaborative. You can find them online at comadrespeakers.com.
 

Thanks for listening to Well, That Went Sideways! We produce new episodes twice a month. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts and on our website, sidewayspod.org. We also have information on our guests, interview transcripts, and links to more conflict resolution resources. That's sidewayspod.org. Our production team is Mary Zinn, Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles, Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua. Our theme music is by Mike Stewart. We produce these programs in Colorado, on the traditional lands of the Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations. To learn more about the importance of land acknowledgement, visit our website, sidewayspod.org. And this podcast is a partnership with The Conflict Center, a Denver-based non profit that provides practical skills and training for addressing everyday conflicts. Find out more at conflictcenter.org.