Mary Zinn: Collaboration makes all the difference, that when you really want to hear someone else's thoughts, and you're not afraid that they will undo whatever you believe in. So, there's um, this mantra that I use, "To open your heart and be unafraid."

Sam Fuqua: That's Mary Zinn, and this is Well, That Went Sideways! A podcast that serves as a resource to help people have healthy, respectful communication. We present a diversity of ideas, tools, and techniques to help you transform conflict in relationships of all kinds. In this episode, we talk with Mary Zinn about strategies for having difficult conversations and about how engaging in conflict can help us learn and grow. She's been involved in conflict resolution for well over 30 years as an activist, educator, and mediator. Mary Zinn is also a member of the Well That Went Sideways! production team.

I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of the program with Alexis Miles. Hi, Alexis.

Alexis Miles: Hi, Sam.

Sam Fuqua: And we are really excited to have another member of the Sideways team as our guest for this episode, Mary Zinn. Hi, Mary.

Mary Zinn: Hi, Alexis. Hi, Sam.

Alexis Miles: Hello, Mary.

Sam Fuqua: Great to have you with us. Mary, your, your passion for conflict resolution, I have to say, I don't know anyone with more passion for this topic. And so, I wanted to start by asking you, where does that start for you? How did you become so passionate about conflict resolution?

Mary Zinn: I believe it started when I met Liz Loescher who founded The Conflict Center in Denver, Colorado. It may have always been there, but Liz made it possible for me to put it into action through The Conflict Center. My quick answer to why do I care about this, the very quickest answer, would be that I came from a dysfunctional family, and maybe everybody comes from a dysfunctional family, so it's my hope that there was a better way to do it. And I was really happy to know that there were people who taught the skills around how to do conflict better.

Sam Fuqua: When you first started learning those skills, was there something that you heard from Liz Loescher or, uh, another teacher that just made you go, "Ah ha!"?

Mary Zinn: So many things, so many things. They emphasize listening. And I know in a lot of what we hear today, there's this emphasis about how important it is to listen and what that really means. How important it is not to be telling your story while you're listening to someone else. To really hear their story or their situation, their experience. That is so hard for people to do. It's really tough to listen without framing what you want to say in response.

Alexis Miles: Well, Mary, what advice would you want to give people who really want to learn how to listen better?

Mary Zinn: Practice. It's like anything else. Practice and check yourself. Am I listening or am I figuring out what to say to convince the other person that I'm right? There's so many steps, Alexis, to this, that knowing that you don't always have the right answer, letting go of being the person who's right, so that you can really have a conversation about varying ideas. More ideas than just your own, or a right answer. Collaboration makes all the difference that you, when you really want to hear someone else's thoughts and you're not afraid that they will undo whatever you believe in. So, there's this mantra that I use, "To open your heart and be unafraid," and that's been a practice for me. How do you do that? How are you not afraid of what conflict might turn out to be in a negative way so that you can go into conflict, embrace it, look for the good outcomes that are possible only because of the conflict?

Alexis Miles: That's interesting that there is something positive inherent in conflict.

Mary Zinn: That's where the learning and the growth is. If you think about it, um, even mother nature, I use this visual that the tiniest seed comes up through the ground, and it has to move things out of the way to become a plant. Everything can't stay the same for that growth to happen. And I believe we're all living in that possibility of what can change and what can happen if we're open to those possibilities, and working with other people to explore them.

Alexis Miles: So Mary, I am curious to hear a story from you about one of the most profound changes or, or skillful resolution of conflict that you've witnessed.

Mary Zinn: One that I remember from mediation, Alexis, is the story of two sisters who came into mediation because they'd gotten into a physical fight. And, after they talked to each other with, with me at the table, they were able to discover that it was, one of the sisters was so hurt because her other sister was giving so much attention to the new boyfriend that the sister was dismissed, or felt dismissed and no longer important. It took that being together and having the conversation with the whole heart to discover they needed just to hear, "I love you! I still love you! I haven't gone anywhere." So, the change from the moment they came into the mediation furious with each other, just the pivot of how they were able to discover what was really going on made all the difference. I know that in these conversations miscommunication or lack of information is critical. So many times, people would say, if I had only known that, and then they can go on with the conversation.

Sam Fuqua: Mary, I wanted to go back to something you said earlier about being afraid to wade into conflict or to address conflict and, and I'm that way often too, I have been throughout my life, and part of getting over that for me was understanding where that fear came from. Have you done the, uh, the looking back or the analysis to determine why you had that fear?

Mary Zinn: I suspect most of us are afraid to be shamed and diminished and to look like we don't know what we're doing or that we have the wrong answer. So, one of the most challenging experiences that I've had, and I had it more than once, was being in conflict with Liz Loescher. She had an amazingly strong personality, and what I learned from her was that no matter what the conflict was, if you have the skills, you can go work with another willing person. Some people are intractable. Problems aren't, she taught me, but the people might be. So, if you have another willing colleague or partner to walk through the conflict and explore it with you, you can get to such a good outcome. You can understand each other better. And 

the conflict actually offers that opportunity. There was one time we had a staff retreat, and the issue of Liz smoking came up. And she felt attacked. She felt like we brought this up without giving her fair warning.

And later, maybe we'll talk about surprising people. Really not a good idea in a negative or conflict way. So, anyway, she wanted to talk to me after the retreat, and I was afraid. I was just afraid to have the conversation. And having the conversation, and others like it, helped me learn that I can do this. I can get through these. I can listen. I can say what I need to say to be heard. I can apologize if I really mean it, and choose to change behavior. So, actually engaging in the conflict helps you grow the skills. I wonder how many people are afraid and when you don't know that it's going to be better after the conversation or after you move forward, you're afraid to try it. It's too risky.

Alexis Miles: I'm wondering about situations where one person is afraid, but willing to move forward, and the other person is not willing to move forward because they are afraid.

Mary Zinn: Or for whatever reason, Alexis. There are other reasons perhaps not to move forward, not to risk what might happen. If there is a way to approach the person who is more afraid or unwilling, and let them know that the relationship matters to you or the solution matters to you, that you are not there to intimidate them, or shame them, or make their life worse in some way, how can you engage them? And it's probably right back to listening, you know. How can I hear your story without a counterattack, without hurting you, regardless of what I'm feeling, so that we can stay in the conversation? It is challenging to stay in the conversation when you are listening to things you really don't want to hear, and the other person needs to say them in order to be heard.

Alexis Miles: It reminds me of those situations where instead of focusing on the matter at hand, or trying to get to the root of it, people start bringing up things from 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago.

Mary Zinn: They do, and there's a lot of garbage behind you that you may or may not bring into the conversation. You may want to keep the goal in mind. What are we trying to do here? What's the task? Instead of all of those things that are painful, how do we really move forward? And not too fast, because people need to be heard. Their stories need to be heard so that they can do maybe the healing that they need to do to move forward, and to have agreements or changes of behavior after the conversation. And know that if it didn't work this time, we'll revisit it. We'll go back to it. There's no problem with revisiting, going back again and saying, "You know, part of that worked for me, but all of it didn't. So, let's make another adjustment."

Alexis Miles: I like that approach. It sounds like it can be incremental. So, the resolution doesn't have to happen all at one time, but the agreement can be, "We're going to keep at this."

Mary Zinn: We have, in our family, an agreement, I'm so glad you mentioned that word, that over the years, we have learned that we will hurt each other. That will happen. We will make mistakes. There will be miscommunications. And, we have figured out, took some doing to figure this out, that we don't hurt each other intentionally. It happens accidentally, or without thought, or we surprise each other by not sharing information. Some of those things happen and somebody gets hurt. So, now that we have agreed that it would not be intentional, we can go ask the other person, "What happened?" "What was that?" "That really didn't feel good to me." "I find out that you're going to visit someone and I'm not included. What's 

that about?" Maybe you take that tone out of it and say, "What's that about?" Knowing that there are answers, and we will work it out, but I never did this thing to hurt you on purpose.

Sam Fuqua: That's very helpful. What about coming back to another type of person, a person who is reluctant to talk about whatever is bothering them or to say more about a conflict? What techniques do you use to draw the person out?

Mary Zinn: As you describe it, Sam, I do want to mention that there are some conflicts and the people are not going to be willing. And it's really important not to engage in an honest and open way with someone who is not able to tell the truth. In one mediation, we found that this particular man really couldn't tell the truth. And he was going through a divorce and he would offer, "Oh yeah, I'll pay that bill," and then the money would never come. Or, "I'll pick up the kids," and then he wouldn't. And he literally couldn't tell the truth. So, a caution to say, know who you're dealing with. You always want to trust that there's good intention, and you want to watch to see the other person's choices and their behaviors. So, once you've done that and you feel like there is a possibility to work through this, the business of asking someone what would work for them, starting with their position, we get really confused about our positions. I absolutely have to have this, instead of why I have to have that. What are our needs? So, if you can get to a person's needs, then you probably can work toward accommodating them, as long as you're also looking at your own needs. I will mention that having a facilitated conversation, having a mediator, will make a difference. If you feel like you want support and help with this conversation, find someone who can do that. These people are trained to do it. And you might ask, if you wish, to bring a support person with you. If you're feeling like you don't want to do that alone, you can bring someone with you, and so can the other party, so that the conversation can take place. It's worth a try. It's better than not having forward motion, having the problem escalate even further.

Alexis Miles: How do you distinguish between a position and a need?

Mary Zinn: Well, there's the story about the orange, and I suspect all of your listeners have heard this, but I'll retell it. That, um, two people were fighting over an orange because they both wanted the orange. Ultimately, the position is, I need this orange. I have to have this orange. And ultimately came to discover that one of them needed the orange juice and the other one needed the orange peel for the zest. They didn't need the orange. They had very specific needs. And it would work out just fine if they could discover, why do you need that? How do you want to use it? Why is it important in your life? And how can I help you get there? How can I help you do that recipe or whatever you're doing? What can I do to support you in that instead of being obstinate about the orange that I must have?

Alexis Miles: So probing, those kinds of probing questions that you just named would be helpful.

Mary Zinn: Right. And knowing or believing that you will discover the solution or a solution is really helpful because it's a treasure. You go after it. You look for it. And it has truly been my experience that the solutions are out there. And if you look long enough, hard enough and get some support, work together, you will find them. Absolutely. That's been my experience.

Alexis Miles: Well, I like how you characterize the solution as a treasure, something that people would want to experience. And it seems that that might help people keep their eyes on the goal, as opposed to just getting lost in the past or in the weeds.

Mary Zinn: Definitely. And, I will offer one other idea. I've mentioned it before, and that is that surprising someone can undermine your best efforts. When you are able to share information ahead of time, people are less likely to get triggered, less likely to escalate if they know what the situation is and, and what the different aspects are. So, keep people informed. Keeping information to yourself may feel like you're guarding something valuable. On the other hand, if you're keeping someone in the dark, that will come back to be less productive, to bite you in some body part that you don't want bitten.

Sam Fuqua: So, you have to have some level of trust there, or maybe you just have to trust that you can take a risk in sharing certain things.

Mary Zinn: Thank you, Sam. Absolutely. If you don't trust the person completely, can you get into the process enough because you trust the process will work? As long as you're dealing with an honest person. I still want to go back to that. If they aren't able to tell you what their goals are or what their needs are, they may need to do some thinking about that. One of the tools that I found helpful, and I still do, is what we used to call an I message, and the formula is, I feel, and then a blank line, when something happens, whatever that is, and because, and then another blank line. So, I feel hurt when someone doesn't include me because I think I'm a pretty valuable person. That's a sample. I took that I message and I use it in a little different way. When something happens that I can't comprehend, and I can't see that it is in my best interest, and I'm not happy about, I use that I message to try and figure out what I'm threatened by before I ever talk to the other person. I try to figure out what's going on with me, and sometimes that's enough. I don't even need to go to the other person because I've figured out what I'm feeling uncomfortable about. And if there is something that needs attention, then I can have a clear explanation to the other person. What is really bothering me? What am I feeling? And it doesn't matter that that person is doing it, I would feel that way no matter who does it. If I'm going to be left out, any number of people can do that. It happened to be this person I'm talking to in this instance. And I just need to know that that's what's bothering me. What a great piece of information to have before you talk to someone.

Alexis Miles: As I listen to you, it seems that it requires at least some degree of self awareness.

Mary Zinn: Yes, I would say that it does. And a lot of people, I believe in this field, study themselves, figure out what's going on with them before they solve their own problems, perhaps with family or neighbors, and before they help other people, you know. You want to be sure as a mediator that your stuff, what's going on in your head, doesn't interfere with the process when you're helping two other people talk to each other. They're going to solve the problem. They're going to figure it out. Your job is to facilitate their conversation and help them find information to move them forward and to open possibilities. But if your stuff gets in the way, then that's counterproductive. So Alexis, I would say yes. And it's a learned skill. So, you can learn how to keep your voice low and slow to keep things from escalating. You can learn how to listen and how to speak without threatening the other person. I also want to go back to letting go because it's so important. I believe that you don't assume that you have all the right answers. When you believe you have all the right answers, you're not really listening for possible solutions from someone else.

And the story that I think best tells my letting go aha moment was when my son Michael was born. And, um, I kind of celebrate when I'm giving birth. So, there was, kind of, a potential party. There were balloons and things like that, but he came out really quickly and he came out not breathing. So that moment for me was letting go. I was not a doctor. I was not in charge. There was literally nothing I could do to change that situation. And I had to trust that other people or the universe, the power of the universe, would take care of Michael and our family at that moment. And the sensation, the physical sensation of letting go was so powerful that I have found that in conflicts to let go of being right is so important and productive. It doesn't mean the other person is doing the same thing. If you, or if I, can let go of being right, then we can move forward and discover ideas that wouldn't have come out if I stand in my position and am unwilling to move.

Sam Fuqua: Mary, we've talked with other guests on the program about the, the physical aspects of some of this, taking a pause, breathing. I'm curious as to your observations about your own physical being and what works for you.

Mary Zinn: When you discover that your body will give you signals, all you have to do is listen. Again, it's, you know, paying attention. If you start to sweat, your hands start to sweat, uh, your heart starts to go fast, you turn, my face turns bright red. So, it's a dead giveaway that if you see me turn bright red, something's going on and I can feel it. I can feel the heat. I stop myself at that moment and ask, what's going on? What is happening to cause that? There have been many times that I have had to say to someone, I need a few minutes, something's going on. I'm not sure exactly what it is, and I need a few minutes to figure it out. I don't say we have to stop the conversation. I may say I need until tomorrow. And let's come back at that time. So, I'm not saying I'm not going to talk to you anymore. We're done here. Because when you get that heated and upset, that's what you really want to do is get the heck out of there. If you can have the presence of mind and body, listen to your body, and know that you need to take some time to figure out what's going on so that you can proceed, you can share that with the other person. It's fine. And it gives them permission to do the same thing. So take a break if you need to.

Alexis Miles: Is that one of the reasons you said a facilitator can be useful? Because they might notice reactions that people are having and be able to slow down the conversation, do some probing of the reactions. Is that part of what you meant?

Mary Zinn: Definitely. There are many, many skills around keeping the conversation productive, keeping people in the conversation without, uh, lashing out at each other, which is not productive. A skilled mediator or facilitator, how many skills they bring to the conversation is so important. And you'll notice them reframing questions. So, someone asks a question and the facilitator or mediator can help the question be said in different words so that it can be heard by the other person in a more receptive way. They'll reframe questions, they'll back the conversation up as you are asking questions of me. You're revisiting some things that were mentioned. There are many, many skills. And if people had them themselves, they could do that. When it is your own problem, it is really hard to stay in a place that is about how to handle the conversation, rather than how to get what I want. So having someone else can be very, very helpful. And, it also gives you a format, a roadmap, as it were, we need to do this and this and this, and it sets some boundaries or norms about how we're going to be in the room together, how to make this a courageous space, so that you can tell your story, and you won't be attacked during this conversation. That's an important safety assurance.

Alexis Miles: I am curious about the varieties of conflicts that you've seen.

Mary Zinn: That's funny. When you say that, my head went to the variety of conflicts I've experienced. And certainly I've seen a variety of conflicts. In all of our lives, we experience conflict all the time. Talk about neighbors, um, people interacting with the police. I had the privilege of being a facilitator for conversations between citizens and police. Individual conversations where they needed to deal with an incident. And interpersonal. I never, um, did divorce. I did family. In fact, I was a little annoyed that family law is what we call divorce when family law or family issues are so much more than divorce. Certainly, people who are family in business together. We did a number of those. Or, or the staff that we taught how to deal with conflict in the workplace. Those sorts of things, Alexis. So there's this huge variety. Again, without conflict, we won't grow. We won't change. So, the happiest of circumstances is conflict everywhere. Engaging in conflict to learn and grow. As Liz would say, "What a concept!" That's another one of Liz Loescher's quotes. Speaking of which, she used this quote, which I often bring to mind and encourage others to use, "People are doing the best they can given their givens. You and I are doing the best we can given our givens."

My history plays the role of coloring everything I choose, do, believe. So, I have to understand that people with a different history, people who grew up in a different family setting, people of different faiths, people who grew up in a different country, there is no way they will come to the same conclusion that I will come to. And yet, I have the expectation that they should agree with me, because of course, I'm right. Yeah. So, knowing that other people's experience leads them down the path that they have taken, they're perfectly "correct," in their conclusion, given their givens. It's such an interesting way to look at how people come to different conclusions, not because they're good or bad people, educated or uneducated, nice or not nice, it has to do with their experience.

Sam Fuqua: Mary Zinn is an activist, an educator, and a mediator who's been involved in conflict resolution for over 30 years. She's also a member of the Well, That Went Sideways! production team.

Thanks for listening to Well, That Went Sideways! We produce new episodes twice a month. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts and on our website, sidewayspod.org. We also have information on our guests, interview transcripts, and links to more conflict resolution resources. That's sidewayspod.org. Our production team is Mary Zinn, Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles, Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua. Our theme music is by Mike Stewart. We produce these programs in Colorado, on the traditional lands of the Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations. To learn more about the importance of land acknowledgment, visit our website, sidewayspod.org. And this podcast is a partnership with The Conflict Center, a Denver-based nonprofit that provides practical skills and training for addressing everyday conflicts. Find out more at conflictcenter.org.